Michael Gira rape allegation

[D.o.S.]

I have to say I am really disappointed in how people are framing sexual assault in this conversation. False accusations account for around 1% of all allegations. That is a tiny number.

On the other side of things, between 20 and 30% of women have been sexually assaulted, which means that plenty of the men we know and love are rapists and abusers.

Even if it is 1%, that is still a person who's guilt should be determined by facts and not just allegations alone. For sure many women experience sexual assault, and for sure there are people - men, in particular - that automatically antagonize/blame the accuser, which isn't right. I'd advocating for no prejudgments towards either party, and waiting (innocent till proven guilty) for the evidence to come out, if there is any. If there isn't, are people just supposed to take a side? Or go by the statistic you stated, and just assume since there are a lot of women that are sexually assaulted and a very small percentage of accusations of rape are false that Gira should be assumed guilty?

omg. This is what I am talking about. if 20% of the women you know have been assaulted, are you really going to doubt your girlfriend or daughter when she comes home and tells you this happened.

Just because you appreciate this guys music, doesn't mean he isn't a shithead.

The framing of this conversation is why women don't report. I can't think of the benefit for her, career wise. He has die hard followers. She is going to be the drunk slut who accused the rock god from Swans for the rest of her career.

The biggest benefit of coming forward is to push the discussion publicly and hopefully to make the world a safer, better place for women. I don't understand how people can discuss this like it isn't possible that she had said no for years, then was passed out from drinking, and woke up with him on top of her. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

Anyway. I am done discussing this now. I have said my piece and you guys can continue to ignore the health and safety of the women around you some more.

Well you haven't really been discussing anything at any point in this post, have you? This, and the other post, is little more than posturing and polemicizing, insofar as it doesn't seem like you've actually read the posts here as much as you've made a (gross) assumption about the positions they contain.

I don't mean that to be rude, by the way. I really don't, but it is hard to ask where your info is coming from and receiving an "ugh you're all awful I'm done." in response.

[SPACERITUAL]

I don't mind being rude. This not the first time aens wife has turned up late to a conversation and used sophomoric, unsupported, and heavily biased arguments to call the entire board a bunch of assholes in response to multiple pages worth of posts she didn't bother to read. When someone calls her out or asks for sources she gives the usual "OMG IM SO OVER THIS ITS SEXIST THAT YOU ASK ME TO VALIDATE MY CLAIMS WITH SOME RESEARCHED EVIDENCE THAT DOESNT COME FROM JEZEBEL" number and fucks off back to the comments section on huffington or wherever. Its always about sex and its always to push the same agenda.

[D.o.S.]

Whooops. Post was deleted. I'm on to you, dase.

But for real, I would like some sourcing to those numbers?

[daseb]

I'm trying to keep my posting to pedals on this forum .

[PanicProne]

I'm saying all the following in a calm, not aggressive tone btw. "Written communication" (is that the correct term?) is tricky. =)
If tried to use quotes to make it easier to follow.

I don't mind being rude. This not the first time aens wife has turned up late to a conversation and used sophomoric, unsupported, and heavily biased arguments to call the entire board a bunch of assholes in response to multiple pages worth of posts she didn't bother to read. When someone calls her out or asks for sources she gives the usual "OMG IM SO OVER THIS ITS SEXIST THAT YOU ASK ME TO VALIDATE MY CLAIMS WITH SOME RESEARCHED EVIDENCE THAT DOESNT COME FROM JEZEBEL" number and fucks off back to the comments section on huffington or wherever. Its always about sex and its always to push the same agenda.

SPACERITUAL, what's the point with your "I don't mind being rude"-approach? This post is just not nice at all. I didn't think these kinda things happened on here. It's disappointing to see. I understand if you don't agree with a person or that persons way of handling themselves and adressing others, but does saying nasty things about them really help? Agree to disagree and leave it at that.
For what it's worth I don't agree with aeans wife calling the entire board a bunch of assholes either. She was upset about the tone in the discussion. At least to me, that's not the same thing.

As for people chiming in "late" in threads the answer is easy. Not everyone has the time or even wants to hang around ILF all the time. Things move fast in here. Also, what makes you think the previous posts haven't been read? Just because an opinion comes in after others doesn't mean it's worth less, right? When it comes to your experience of someone always pushing the same agenda, does that make it any less valid or important?

And with aens wife being called out. She used a statistic without posting the source, I understand people feel skeptic for that reason, but neither has that statistic been proven wrong. So the "lack of sources"-argument go both ways here. I agree stating something and then "storming out" isn't really the best way to strengthen that particular argument, but I also feel it's absolutely ok to get emotional or simply just not want to discuss things any longer.

I respect you, but both of those numbers are BS. I'm pretty sure I know where you're getting both numbers, and both sources have been thoroughly debunked. We have no idea what percentage of accusations are false, because that is a completely unknowable number. That may be the number of accusations that have been PROVEN false, but the majority of accusations are never proven one way or the other, so who knows. I'm not saying that false accusations are commonplace, nor am I implying that they are a majority. But to state a number like we have any idea is nuts.

Bigchiefbc, you say you probably know where the numbers are coming from, would you mind posting a link? A link to these statistics being debunked would surely contain links to the original source too, right? I for one would be very interested in reading this. I really am. And yes, ofc I could google, but if you already knew where to look that'd save a lot of time.

The framing of this conversation is why women don't report. I can't think of the benefit for her, career wise. He has die hard followers. She is going to be the drunk slut who accused the rock god from Swans for the rest of her career.

The biggest benefit of coming forward is to push the discussion publicly and hopefully to make the world a safer, better place for women. I don't understand how people can discuss this like it isn't possible that she had said no for years, then was passed out from drinking, and woke up with him on top of her. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

In my opinion, even if you think Grimm is right or not I think the last bit of text sums it up here. The climate of discussing rape has to become more open and less condemning, to help people who come forward with their experiences. Calling people crazy won't get us anywhere.

[DarkAxel]

so anyway just to make it clear

Gira did admit to attempting to have sex with her. The only question remaining is whether they were both drunk and going for it or whether it was non-consensual, therefore rape?

[rustywire]

I'm trying to keep my posting to pedals on this forum .

I rarely feel bad about anything I post on the internet bc I try to be careful w/my words & not reflect poorly on fam.
Cant help but feel bad saying anything about this topic. Things needs to be said though.

Mama Dwarfcraft and I haven't interacted in anything but casual passing afaicr. I believe she means well, identifies as a feminist of the non-man-hating variety. I understand this topic triggering strong feels, it does in me. However, for any real breakthroughs to be made...divisive, vilifying propaganda must never be injected into these discussions.
I'm especially wary of statistics being thrown around without citation, that's typically how platitudes perpetuate and people grab for pitchforks, light torches. This is part of why I've grown to have such tremendous respect for judges...as someone who finds litigation utterly tedious.
It's also why a diversity of opinions and ideology is essential; it serves as a system of checks & balances where falsehoods are exposed & do not hold up under scrutiny, so they can be abandoned in favor of better information. Coming forward is important, but WHEN and HOW are equally deterministic in which shape the discussion and investigation takes from the get-go. Timing and approach frame [it] as much as the account of what happened, itself.
It is important to not fall victim to narratives, for one loses aim when doubling down on appeals to emotion.
Vigilantism is a menace to society and history proves time & time again when people rush to judgement it is the innocent who become collateral damage. Victims deserve justice, but wrongful imprisonment or persecution for mischaracterization is not [that].

[bigchiefbc]

Bigchiefbc, you say you probably know where the numbers are coming from, would you mind posting a link? A link to these statistics being debunked would surely contain links to the original source too, right? I for one would be very interested in reading this. I really am. And yes, ofc I could google, but if you already knew where to look that'd save a lot of time.

This article is one place to start where they really start digging into the numbers, and they link to various studies that pull up all kinds of numbers, from 2% all the way up to double digits.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/li ... %E2%88%9E/

The discussion about false accusation numbers and how unknowable they are starts at Section III.

[SPACERITUAL]

SPACERITUAL, what's the point with your "I don't mind being rude"-approach? This post is just not nice at all. I didn't think these kinda things happened on here. It's disappointing to see. I understand if you don't agree with a person or that persons way of handling themselves and adressing others, but does saying nasty things about them really help? Agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Oh man I for one think its a vast improvement over the time i argues with her as BEERHAMMER. I was downright friendly.

For what it's worth I don't agree with aeans wife calling the entire board a bunch of assholes either. She was upset about the tone in the discussion. At least to me, that's not the same thing.

She does it frequently and thats why i dislike it.

As for people chiming in "late" in threads the answer is easy. Not everyone has the time or even wants to hang around ILF all the time.

Well if you don't want to be a regular part of our community, maybe don't chime in once or twice a year like you're jesus christ, eh? Its kind of...whats the word..condescending?

Also, what makes you think the previous posts haven't been read?

Because its abundantly clear to everyone that they haven't.

When it comes to your experience of someone always pushing the same agenda, does that make it any less valid or important?

Yes as a matter of fact it does. Its called cognitive bias and its wrong mmm kay.

[Jwar]

The thing about statistics is that they are NEVER accurate in any case. They are always skewed because in order to get an accurate statistic, you'd have to survey all of mankind. Or in this case, all women. Does that mean that a lot of women are not sexually assaulted or raped? No. Absolutely not.

I know many, many women and a few men that have been raped or sexually assaulted. Those include my mother, both my sisters, my ex girl friend, my best friend...etc. The list in long. It's a sad fucking world.

Unfortunately in this case it's a he said, she said situation. Since she waited 8 years to come forward, it is going to be impossible to prove. Which is sad. It's sad that women are afraid to come forward and it's sad that rape happens at all. It's a disgusting world we live in.

[PanicProne]

This article is one place to start where they really start digging into the numbers, and they link to various studies that pull up all kinds of numbers, from 2% all the way up to double digits.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/li ... %E2%88%9E/

The discussion about false accusation numbers and how unknowable they are starts at Section III.

Thanks! I'm gonna have a look at this.

As for people chiming in "late" in threads the answer is easy. Not everyone has the time or even wants to hang around ILF all the time.

Well if you don't want to be a regular part of our community, maybe don't chime in once or twice a year like you're jesus christ, eh? Its kind of...whats the word..condescending?

Allright Space, if I've understood you right you don't seem to happy about what I posted either. I obviously don't know the history you and aens wife have on forums, involved with eachother or not. But I understand you have your reasons to disagreeing with her.

As far as the above quote, I don't understand if it's directed at me or people who aren't that active posting-wise in general. Either way I still think everyone should be judged equally. Chiming in late shouldn't mean your opinions don't count. As far as the condescending (which is kind of a new word for me, at least I don't use it regurlarly, so forgive me if I mess things up here) bit, again I'm not sure that's directed at me or not. If it is and you feel I've treated you (and/or others) unfairly, then I apologize, it really isn't what I'm going for. And just for the record, Jesus Christ in particular isn't someone I really look up to btw... =D

Unfortunately in this case it's a he said, she said situation. Since she waited 8 years to come forward, it is going to be impossible to prove. Which is sad. It's sad that women are afraid to come forward and it's sad that rape happens at all. It's a disgusting world we live in.

Well put.

[SPACERITUAL]

Arriving late to a discussion doesnt matter but my consternation usually has something to do with the fact that she never addresses actual posts made by others, nor do her posts ever take them into account. She sees a thread that has something to do with sex, busts in, lectures everyone on being a piece of shit, then bounces on out of there using her cross like a pogo stick.

I don't really mind anything you said.

To recap the only opinions I've actually put forth in this thread:

1. Based on speaking to people that were actually involved in some way, previous interactions with michael, and the fact that jennifer claims to have directly contradictory evidence, i believe Michael to be innocent of raping larkin.

2. Based on her behavior and inability to put together lucid arguments, i believe Aens wife to be incapable of neutrally discussing the issue, she also may be a sexist jerk.

[DarkAxel]

the fact we're having shots fired and making this a shitty, personal quarrel over a fucking rape allegation case is a little ridiculous to me

not what I'd expect on ILF

not saying I blame anyone, don't want to point fingers because unlike you Spacey, I don't have the personal angle (meaning I haven't even met him after their Prague show). And unlike Louise I don't have the a) female point of view and b) possibly enough social consciousness, despite my attitude towards sexism and feminism.

I just thing this thread spiraled into something unexpected for no real reason.

[Swordfishtrombone]

so anyway just to make it clear

Gira did admit to attempting to have sex with her. The only question remaining is whether they were both drunk and going for it or whether it was non-consensual, therefore rape?

Pretty much, yeah.

[Faldoe]

I'm not ok with the tone in here. Statistics.

Those are unsupported statistics. How do you think we should handle this?

omg. you are what's wrong with the world. i'm out.

it felt like i missed a really obnoxious post by faldoe somewhere in the middle, honestly. It'd be nice to have mama aen's input and pointing the right direction rather than leaving.

anyways. back on topic.

That portion above that has my name in it as being quoted aren't my words, as far as I can tell from looking at my prior posts. There may have been some mixup.