Michael Gira rape allegation

[SPACERITUAL]

Man I'm really not into greyboxing but you could make me a believer.

[bigchiefbc]

I have to say I am really disappointed in how people are framing sexual assault in this conversation. False accusations account for around 1% of all allegations. That is a tiny number.

On the other side of things, between 20 and 30% of women have been sexually assaulted, which means that plenty of the men we know and love are rapists and abusers.

I respect you, but both of those numbers are BS. I'm pretty sure I know where you're getting both numbers, and both sources have been thoroughly debunked. We have no idea what percentage of accusations are false, because that is a completely unknowable number. That may be the number of accusations that have been PROVEN false, but the majority of accusations are never proven one way or the other, so who knows. I'm not saying that false accusations are commonplace, nor am I implying that they are a majority. But to state a number like we have any idea is nuts.

As for the 20 to 30% being sexually assaulted, that's equally crazy. The studies that show those numbers like 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 are a case of the study designers asking women about a very large spectrum of information that ranges from rape, to coercion, all the way down to drunken hookups and basically innocuous conduct, and then lumping all "yes" answers in as "sexual assault". That methodology is terrible and it was done specifically to get as horrifically high a number as possible to serve an agenda.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not some fucking slimy MRA douchebag who thinks that all women are liars and rape is a myth. But what I am is someone who wants to have a serious conversation about a serious matter, and I think it's extremely important that we do so honestly and that we don't throw around numbers if they aren't scientifically backed.

[Faldoe]

I have to say I am really disappointed in how people are framing sexual assault in this conversation. False accusations account for around 1% of all allegations. That is a tiny number.

On the other side of things, between 20 and 30% of women have been sexually assaulted, which means that plenty of the men we know and love are rapists and abusers.

Even if it is 1%, that is still a person who's guilt should be determined by facts and not just allegations alone. For sure many women experience sexual assault, and for sure there are people - men, in particular - that automatically antagonize/blame the accuser, which isn't right. I'd advocating for no prejudgments towards either party, and waiting (innocent till proven guilty) for the evidence to come out, if there is any. If there isn't, are people just supposed to take a side? Or go by the statistic you stated, and just assume since there are a lot of women that are sexually assaulted and a very small percentage of accusations of rape are false that Gira should be assumed guilty?

omg. This is what I am talking about. if 20% of the women you know have been assaulted, are you really going to doubt your girlfriend or daughter when she comes home and tells you this happened.

Just because you appreciate this guys music, doesn't mean he isn't a shithead.

The framing of this conversation is why women don't report. I can't think of the benefit for her, career wise. He has die hard followers. She is going to be the drunk slut who accused the rock god from Swans for the rest of her career.

The biggest benefit of coming forward is to push the discussion publicly and hopefully to make the world a safer, better place for women. I don't understand how people can discuss this like it isn't possible that she had said no for years, then was passed out from drinking, and woke up with him on top of her. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

Anyway. I am done discussing this now. I have said my piece and you guys can continue to ignore the health and safety of the women around you some more.

I like Swans but I'm not taking a position cause I want Gira to get off. I don't care who it is in terms of an artist, and my affinity for their work, if they did rape someone, that is a serious thing, and I wouldn't try and sweep it under the rug so as to not allow the event to disturb my enjoyment of their art.

Regarding the 20% question. If 20% of women have been assaulted, that doesn't mean all have. And if my gf or sister said they were raped, I'd believe them and offer whatever support I could - go to the police, etc - to make sure they can properly cope and heal from it. It would be hard not to want to respond in/with rage towards the accuser, but facts are important. One can believe a woman's claim about being raped and that they should get support in the matter without projecting definitive guilt onto the accused. There a many situations in which assault occurs and facts are important.

Also, regarding a women I know. If it is an event that just happened, she can be examined by a doctor, there are ways to get proof of the event. In this case, it's an event that supposedly happened in the past. Until (if) more comes out about this that may shine some light as to whether this actually occurred, how can anyone know?

There is a slippery slope here in which every time a women alleges rape and people are just supposed to believe her and condemn the accused, there is a room for abuse of the allegations to be used for other motives.

If you have/had a brother and he was accused of rape, how would you respond? Would you, despite your love for him, call him a piece of shit and just assume the woman telling the truth, or would you realize both it is a serious allegation and that despite your love for your brother, you must be open to him being found guilty of the offense, but also maintain - until then - support for him? - Granted he denied the allegation to begin with.

These aren't easy cut and dry matters.

If a woman says she has been raped, she should be given support and the matter should be looked into, and evidence should be complied to show she was raped and by the person she said she was raped by. Women are human, as are men and neither are perfect. Women are victimized all over the world, and that is a serious problem, but it shouldn't come down as definitive proof the accused is in fact guilty, every time a rape is alleged.

[SPACERITUAL]

I have to say I am really disappointed in how people are framing sexual assault in this conversation. False accusations account for around 1% of all allegations. That is a tiny number.

On the other side of things, between 20 and 30% of women have been sexually assaulted, which means that plenty of the men we know and love are rapists and abusers.

I respect you, but both of those numbers are BS. I'm pretty sure I know where you're getting both numbers, and both sources have been thoroughly debunked. We have no idea what percentage of accusations are false, because that is a completely unknowable number. That may be the number of accusations that have been PROVEN false, but the majority of accusations are never proven one way or the other, so who knows. I'm not saying that false accusations are commonplace, nor am I implying that they are a majority. But to state a number like we have any idea is nuts.

As for the 20 to 30% being sexually assaulted, that's equally crazy. The studies that show those numbers like 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 are a case of the study designers asking women about a very large spectrum of information that ranges from rape, to coercion, all the way down to drunken hookups and basically innocuous conduct, and then lumping all "yes" answers in as "sexual assault". That methodology is terrible and it was done specifically to get as horrifically high a number as possible to serve an agenda.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not some fucking slimy MRA douchebag who thinks that all women are liars and rape is a myth. But what I am is someone who wants to have a serious conversation about a serious matter, and I think it's extremely important that we know exactly what the numbers are, and we do this honestly.

We've never ever gotten along and I'm not trying to start now but this was a good post.


EDIT: Though id just like to chime in to say that the stigma of reporting rape is most definitely not a problem that only or only majorly affects women. I don't have any statistics to back it up, but i do have years of sitting in support groups hearing from men that have gone to the hospital for serious trauma and internal bleeding as a direct result of rape to be met with derision and offhanded and under-the-breath ridicule about their boyfriends getting a little too excited. In my experience, most male rape goes unreported.

This is not to say that its a problem that only affects one or the other or that the majority of attention needs to be paid this or that, but what I am saying is that rape and all the hell that comes with it is a problem that affects us all regardless of sex, race, religion, or any of the others, and using it as a political podium is despicable and offensive.

[bigchiefbc]

We've never ever gotten along and I'm not trying to start now but this was a good post.

Well I personally am always willing to bury the hatchet if you are Spacey. Thanks.

[rustywire]

[Deep breath]

NSFW: show

I haven't read the thread, so apologies for stepping on toes.

Anyone who rapes some1, may they learn the folly of their ways through constant contact with violent inmates who properly condemn such an act, following due process to get them off the streets 4L.
That said...
Perhaps I've been jaded by recent memories, where a single public accusation has replaced due process and "innocence until proven guilty" while lives are dragged through the court of public opinion without evidence. Rape ranks high atop of the most heinous, damaging violent crimes a person can commit. A survivor can never return to feeling like they did pre-trauma.
Similarly, falsely accusing or spinning a handsy-creep's advances or allowing others to convince you a drunken encounter was rape without seeking law enforcement help/legal advice is, to a lesser-extent, a violation of the public trust, a marginalization of rape survivors, and victimizes the accused who can never go back to feeling like they did *in the before time*.

Statistics...check Mark Twain quote for more info. Each case must be treated individually.
There are dubious figures invoked, arrived at through polling, where respondents are presumed truthful & results are broadly applied as universal truths when backed by nothing more than *social-science* of anecdote.

As for specific examples why "listen & believe" is flawed, in recent memory there is Duke Lacrosse.
More recently the infamous Mattress-girl & Rolling Stone fiasco, where a reporter looking to push narrative didn't confirm any principles in a story before putting it in print.
But worst of all there is Thomas Edward Kennedy http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ng-11.html

A most unfortunate casualty of "listen & believe" and a reminder how precious "innocent until proven guilty" is in our legal system; not to be taken lightly. Serious implications from false accusations must never be permitted to determine an innocent person losing freedom, reputation, life for a crime they didn't commit. Otherwise the power of such an accusation alone can be used for blackmail & extortion, revenge & exile from society.
Accusing someone of rape does not a rapist make...but in the fearful, angry public's eye, an accusation is proof of the crime.

Remember Salem, Mass.
Remember Jonestown.
Remember there are people who would treat [them] as an instruction manual for personal gain or ideology.
If nothing else, I try to remember the frequency in which one encounters sociopaths who will deceive & ruin anyone and everyone to get their way, get someone back and "teach them a lesson" as a vigilante; and how many borderline people will say and do anything for ideology, money, fame...even infamy...or put someone else in the hot seat & save their own hide when the temperature rises. We're all related-to, work-with or know-of someone like [that] who immediately comes to mind. Love people, but trust is a rare commodity.

It is with regret I do not believe the accuser in this case, based on details I've been given
Feel horrible saying that.

[Faldoe]

Really good points, Rustywire

[D.o.S.]

I have to say I am really disappointed in how people are framing sexual assault in this conversation. False accusations account for around 1% of all allegations. That is a tiny number.

On the other side of things, between 20 and 30% of women have been sexually assaulted, which means that plenty of the men we know and love are rapists and abusers.

Even if it is 1%, that is still a person who's guilt should be determined by facts and not just allegations alone. For sure many women experience sexual assault, and for sure there are people - men, in particular - that automatically antagonize/blame the accuser, which isn't right. I'd advocating for no prejudgments towards either party, and waiting (innocent till proven guilty) for the evidence to come out, if there is any. If there isn't, are people just supposed to take a side? Or go by the statistic you stated, and just assume since there are a lot of women that are sexually assaulted and a very small percentage of accusations of rape are false that Gira should be assumed guilty?

omg. This is what I am talking about. if 20% of the women you know have been assaulted, are you really going to doubt your girlfriend or daughter when she comes home and tells you this happened.

Just because you appreciate this guys music, doesn't mean he isn't a shithead.

The framing of this conversation is why women don't report. I can't think of the benefit for her, career wise. He has die hard followers. She is going to be the drunk slut who accused the rock god from Swans for the rest of her career.

The biggest benefit of coming forward is to push the discussion publicly and hopefully to make the world a safer, better place for women. I don't understand how people can discuss this like it isn't possible that she had said no for years, then was passed out from drinking, and woke up with him on top of her. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

Anyway. I am done discussing this now. I have said my piece and you guys can continue to ignore the health and safety of the women around you some more.

Well you haven't really been discussing anything at any point in this post, have you? This, and the other post, is little more than posturing and polemicizing, insofar as it doesn't seem like you've actually read the posts here as much as you've made a (gross) assumption about the positions they contain.

I don't mean that to be rude, by the way. I really don't, but it is hard to ask where your info is coming from and receiving an "ugh you're all awful I'm done." in response.

[SPACERITUAL]

I don't mind being rude. This not the first time aens wife has turned up late to a conversation and used sophomoric, unsupported, and heavily biased arguments to call the entire board a bunch of assholes in response to multiple pages worth of posts she didn't bother to read. When someone calls her out or asks for sources she gives the usual "OMG IM SO OVER THIS ITS SEXIST THAT YOU ASK ME TO VALIDATE MY CLAIMS WITH SOME RESEARCHED EVIDENCE THAT DOESNT COME FROM JEZEBEL" number and fucks off back to the comments section on huffington or wherever. Its always about sex and its always to push the same agenda.

[D.o.S.]

Whooops. Post was deleted. I'm on to you, dase.

But for real, I would like some sourcing to those numbers?

[daseb]

I'm trying to keep my posting to pedals on this forum .

[PanicProne]

I'm saying all the following in a calm, not aggressive tone btw. "Written communication" (is that the correct term?) is tricky. =)
If tried to use quotes to make it easier to follow.

I don't mind being rude. This not the first time aens wife has turned up late to a conversation and used sophomoric, unsupported, and heavily biased arguments to call the entire board a bunch of assholes in response to multiple pages worth of posts she didn't bother to read. When someone calls her out or asks for sources she gives the usual "OMG IM SO OVER THIS ITS SEXIST THAT YOU ASK ME TO VALIDATE MY CLAIMS WITH SOME RESEARCHED EVIDENCE THAT DOESNT COME FROM JEZEBEL" number and fucks off back to the comments section on huffington or wherever. Its always about sex and its always to push the same agenda.

SPACERITUAL, what's the point with your "I don't mind being rude"-approach? This post is just not nice at all. I didn't think these kinda things happened on here. It's disappointing to see. I understand if you don't agree with a person or that persons way of handling themselves and adressing others, but does saying nasty things about them really help? Agree to disagree and leave it at that.
For what it's worth I don't agree with aeans wife calling the entire board a bunch of assholes either. She was upset about the tone in the discussion. At least to me, that's not the same thing.

As for people chiming in "late" in threads the answer is easy. Not everyone has the time or even wants to hang around ILF all the time. Things move fast in here. Also, what makes you think the previous posts haven't been read? Just because an opinion comes in after others doesn't mean it's worth less, right? When it comes to your experience of someone always pushing the same agenda, does that make it any less valid or important?

And with aens wife being called out. She used a statistic without posting the source, I understand people feel skeptic for that reason, but neither has that statistic been proven wrong. So the "lack of sources"-argument go both ways here. I agree stating something and then "storming out" isn't really the best way to strengthen that particular argument, but I also feel it's absolutely ok to get emotional or simply just not want to discuss things any longer.

I respect you, but both of those numbers are BS. I'm pretty sure I know where you're getting both numbers, and both sources have been thoroughly debunked. We have no idea what percentage of accusations are false, because that is a completely unknowable number. That may be the number of accusations that have been PROVEN false, but the majority of accusations are never proven one way or the other, so who knows. I'm not saying that false accusations are commonplace, nor am I implying that they are a majority. But to state a number like we have any idea is nuts.

Bigchiefbc, you say you probably know where the numbers are coming from, would you mind posting a link? A link to these statistics being debunked would surely contain links to the original source too, right? I for one would be very interested in reading this. I really am. And yes, ofc I could google, but if you already knew where to look that'd save a lot of time.

The framing of this conversation is why women don't report. I can't think of the benefit for her, career wise. He has die hard followers. She is going to be the drunk slut who accused the rock god from Swans for the rest of her career.

The biggest benefit of coming forward is to push the discussion publicly and hopefully to make the world a safer, better place for women. I don't understand how people can discuss this like it isn't possible that she had said no for years, then was passed out from drinking, and woke up with him on top of her. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

In my opinion, even if you think Grimm is right or not I think the last bit of text sums it up here. The climate of discussing rape has to become more open and less condemning, to help people who come forward with their experiences. Calling people crazy won't get us anywhere.

[DarkAxel]

so anyway just to make it clear

Gira did admit to attempting to have sex with her. The only question remaining is whether they were both drunk and going for it or whether it was non-consensual, therefore rape?

[rustywire]

I'm trying to keep my posting to pedals on this forum .

I rarely feel bad about anything I post on the internet bc I try to be careful w/my words & not reflect poorly on fam.
Cant help but feel bad saying anything about this topic. Things needs to be said though.

Mama Dwarfcraft and I haven't interacted in anything but casual passing afaicr. I believe she means well, identifies as a feminist of the non-man-hating variety. I understand this topic triggering strong feels, it does in me. However, for any real breakthroughs to be made...divisive, vilifying propaganda must never be injected into these discussions.
I'm especially wary of statistics being thrown around without citation, that's typically how platitudes perpetuate and people grab for pitchforks, light torches. This is part of why I've grown to have such tremendous respect for judges...as someone who finds litigation utterly tedious.
It's also why a diversity of opinions and ideology is essential; it serves as a system of checks & balances where falsehoods are exposed & do not hold up under scrutiny, so they can be abandoned in favor of better information. Coming forward is important, but WHEN and HOW are equally deterministic in which shape the discussion and investigation takes from the get-go. Timing and approach frame [it] as much as the account of what happened, itself.
It is important to not fall victim to narratives, for one loses aim when doubling down on appeals to emotion.
Vigilantism is a menace to society and history proves time & time again when people rush to judgement it is the innocent who become collateral damage. Victims deserve justice, but wrongful imprisonment or persecution for mischaracterization is not [that].

[bigchiefbc]

Bigchiefbc, you say you probably know where the numbers are coming from, would you mind posting a link? A link to these statistics being debunked would surely contain links to the original source too, right? I for one would be very interested in reading this. I really am. And yes, ofc I could google, but if you already knew where to look that'd save a lot of time.

This article is one place to start where they really start digging into the numbers, and they link to various studies that pull up all kinds of numbers, from 2% all the way up to double digits.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/li ... %E2%88%9E/

The discussion about false accusation numbers and how unknowable they are starts at Section III.