Can I Build a Pedal Patchbay?

[Invisible Man]

After much deliberation, I think I have an answer that will work for me.

I always want to switch the order of my pedals, since few of them really fall into the "categories" that make signal chains easy to order. Where the hell does a ring mod go? A Pitchfactor? A MuRF? Even my looper...so, I want to wire up every jack to a patchbay so that every point is accessible, and so I can re-order my chain, patch my LFO/envelope generator to any of the 26 expression pedal jacks on my board (stackable cables? Hell yes), or just plug in an expression pedal anywhere without pulling a pedal off of the board.

The problem is that I only have a small space. 2.6"x 10". Luckily, this will fit: http://www.mammothelectronics.com/4S103 ... 0-1006.htm

So: can it be done? Could I just wire up all 52 jacks (I/O, EXP) to this enclosure, install 52 3.5mm jacks, and patch away? Is there any problem with patching 1/4" instrument cables/patch cords to 3/5mm jacks for audio and cv? Modular dudes do it all the time, right?

[lordgalvar]

The problem with doing that with an expression pedal is that it will usually override the original knob therefore leaving you with no control/pot for the pedal and you really can't just have a plug/cord going nowhere. You could route it so that it goes to a bank of pots and then just switch it out with an exp when you wanted via the switch bay, but I think it overcomplicates everything.

If you plan well and set up a less individually looped board (much like goroth did in the other looper thread), you will simplify the whole thing. Going from 1/4 to 3.5 is just increasing your chances of part failure and special parts. An intelligently planned switchers with relays would probably be more efficient (for example, 2 loops, 3 switches-> on/off loop 1, on/off loop 2, switch order via relay 2 before 1). An expression splitter would probably help too (like the expressionator or something copiot could devise).

You'll probably never be able to beat the costs of a premade patchbay either (and you could mount it under a board).

It can be done, but it just is a lot of money to invest to create new logistical problems.

There are just simplier and better solutions in my opinion.

[Invisible Man]

The problem with doing that with an expression pedal is that it will usually override the original knob therefore leaving you with no control/pot for the pedal and you really can't just have a plug/cord going nowhere. You could route it so that it goes to a bank of pots and then just switch it out with an exp when you wanted via the switch bay, but I think it overcomplicates everything.

If you plan well and set up a less individually looped board (much like goroth did in the other looper thread), you will simplify the whole thing. Going from 1/4 to 3.5 is just increasing your chances of part failure and special parts. An intelligently planned switchers with relays would probably be more efficient (for example, 2 loops, 3 switches-> on/off loop 1, on/off loop 2, switch order via relay 2 before 1). An expression splitter would probably help too (like the expressionator or something copiot could devise).

You'll probably never be able to beat the costs of a premade patchbay either (and you could mount it under a board).

It can be done, but it just is a lot of money to invest to create new logistical problems.

There are just simplier and better solutions in my opinion.

(Slaps forehead) I somehow hadn't realized that having something plugged into an EXP/CV jack would defeat the knob. Dammit.

Then perhaps I can just build the bay for pedal order swapping, and do EXP/CV patches the old-fashioned way. Keep in mind that I'm not just trying to implement relays or loops--I'm looking to treat my pedalboard like the modular synth I've built it up to be, and to give it that level of flexibility. Even having an order switcher wouldn't do--sometimes I need the looper first, other times in the middle of the chain, and often at the end. Ditto for many other pedals. I've looked into having one built, and it would be massively complicated and pretty expensive.

But...it sounds like just building a patch bay for I/O might work. That'd still be fun. Only problem is that I'd need at least three cables (one for guitar/bass/noise input, two for amps) that convert 1/4" to 3.5mm using either adapters or new plugs soldered to them. Just patching I/O brings the total number of jacks down to 23. It should be possible to get around 30 jacks on the face of that enclosure.

Thanks for the post, Galvar. I remember you suggested (in jest) that someone should just hardwire their board, which I have considered. Now I'm just working on shades of that idea.

[lordgalvar]

I think if you put the patchbay at the back of the board or side and put all the pedal runs (1/4" in/outs) on the side and then put 3.5mm jacks on top, that would look really good.

Don't rule out the idea of the exp wiring. Run the select ones you would want to use (like maybe not blend on the ring mod, but the frequency...just pick important ones) all to an undermounted box. Have a switch to determine if it will run to a remote pot (choose based on what works best for that pedal based on their recommentations...but also try some alternative values because sometimes you can get an extended range) or to an external exp jack. That way you could run several things and then on the fly use an exp pedal. Another option is to keep the under box with all the 1/4" exp runs going there to a breakout box via a cable like an old printer/parallel cable to save space (and one simple connection). The breakout box would be more availiable for tweaking and would have all your tweaked knobs in one place. Then a switch would determine which gets routed to the exp pedals plugged into the breakout box.

I think a patch bay would be fun and have thought about it in the past. I've just moved on to running a few pedals that I would use most.

Another thing to consider is longer cable runs which may require more buffering (but if you are using the moogs, you should be fine).

Sounds like a blast! Keep us informed! (If you want a diagram or something for that breakout cv/exp controller, let me know...but just thought you could even expand it into a kind of mod matrix setup like the old EMS Synthi)

[Invisible Man]

I think if you put the patchbay at the back of the board or side and put all the pedal runs (1/4" in/outs) on the side and then put 3.5mm jacks on top, that would look really good.

That's the idea, yeah. Route the 1/4" jacks into a number of holes drilled in the bottom of the enclosure, then solder them to the 3.5mm jacks. Would be pretty tidy.

Here's the scoop (you seem to understand this already): what I want to be able to do is access every parameter, knob, jack, and combination of these things at all times. I'm too antsy to do otherwise, and the stuff I have come to love is too deep and flexible to be consigned to use as "effects." This stuff changes the way I make music, and having access to all of what it can do is a big deal for me.

So, if there's a way to create a breakout box with a printer cable (not entirely sure what you mean by printer cable--I think I get it) that I can simply plug in and fiddle with in a way that's separate from the jacks of the pedals themselves, that'd be great. My board has two tiers, and the lower tier's jacks are always obscured by the upper tier. So every time I want to change something, or plug in an expression pedal, I have to move everyone around. No bueno.

So perhaps I could just run that same enclosure under the top tier, patch all I/O and some EXP/CV jacks to it, then run that to a breakout box? I'll consider that, as it seems pretty smart. Though I'd need a massive printer cable, or a series of them.

I'll admit, I don't quite follow you on the expression pedal controlling a remote pot. I understand that pots have different resistance ratings, but I'm not sure how I might wire things to utilize a Moogerfooger's LFO or envelope out function might be impacted in this scheme (both for sending these signals--which seems simple--and for receiving them--which seems more complex). This has more to do with my ignorance of the whole shebang than with your explanation, I'm afraid.

And, upon looking up the EMS Synthi: 1) It seems bonkers, and 2) I would hope for something more robust than the little pins inserted into that matrix. Though the idea behind this whole thing is essentially the same.

If you have a diagram handy for what you're describing, yeah, I'd be super interested in seeing it. No biggie, though.

[lordgalvar]

I'll draw you up a picture here while I cook a pizza. See if I can explain the whole concept better. (the only reason I had said to pick the exp/cv connections you really want is because some of those moogs have a ton...and it would just be a logisitcal nightmare is all. but the idea is expandability, so theorically you could include as many connections as you want).

The different pot values stems from the pot in the actual pedal. The moog ep's are 100kohm and the roland is 50kohm. Sometimes you wont get any real noticable effect because of scaling using the wrong pedal (for example...added exp to a DOD delay pot which was 5kohm. Basicually just set delay time at max with no real sweep when using the roland or boss pedal.)

The beauty of the EMS matrix is that you could have the LFO off the moog ring mod control several things at once without special cables (just an example...not the only way to use it).

The other thing to consider is the difference between CV and EXP and the lack of an overall standard in pedals. May need some vactrols in there to keep things floatin'

[Invisible Man]

I feel you there. If it helps to know, I'm really only working with eight or nine pedals. But four of them are Moogerfoogers.

2 Fuzz Factory
7 MF-101
9 MF-102
8 (7 I would use) MF-105M
8 MF 104-M
6 (one is for an aux switch) Pitchfactor
5 Boomerang
3 Count to Five

Bringing the total number of jacks to 46. Plus one for input.

What you describe with the Moog's LFO is exactly what I'm aiming for, and one of the reasons for starting down this path. Running four or five parameters' worth of exp/cv from that one LFO would be incredible, but--as you say--hard to pull off. Even if I can only use cv on other cv-ready gear (the other Moogerfoogers), that's still better than using it on one parameter at a time. Which is what I'm limited to now. That's also one of the reasons to utilize 3.5mm, as you can get stackable cables that'd make cv control of multiple parameters more do-able. I haven't seen stackable 1/4" cables, thought I could be in the dark on that. All of this is to say nothing of I/O routing, all of which is much simpler than working with exp/cv, and of equal importance.

I am also aware of the CP-251, and I have owned it before. The mixer was limited, and it did offer some cool stuff, but not enough to justify keeping it. I'd much rather keep this firmly in pedal-land, and use it as a synth rather than go down that rabbit hole any further.



Welp, now I want pizza.

[lordgalvar]

http://www.ericasynths.lv/en/shop/euror ... mixer.html looks pretty neat. I know it is synth gear, but it is basicually a router. With the ability to save patches and to sequence it would be super trick. Another options if you wanted to go DIY route would be to build something like that in the form factor you want with Arduino using MUX or relays. (thanks for the headsup on erica synths D.o.s.)

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll11 ... lu7nkx.jpg might help...Will draw something better at some point...hope it helps

Just make the CV breakout box like the pedal patchbay, just that it has the option to default to a knob and can be switched to a jack (for in out).

I don't know if the CT5, pitchfactor, or boomerang can take the 0-5v of CV (I think I remember that the CT5 can)...but for the most part, getting the moogs together shouldn't be a problem.

[BoatRich]

http://www.ericasynths.lv/en/shop/euror ... mixer.html looks pretty neat. I know it is synth gear, but it is basicually a router. With the ability to save patches and to sequence it would be super trick. Another options if you wanted to go DIY route would be to build something like that in the form factor you want with Arduino using MUX or relays. (thanks for the headsup on erica synths D.o.s.)

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll11 ... lu7nkx.jpg might help...Will draw something better at some point...hope it helps

Just make the CV breakout box like the pedal patchbay, just that it has the option to default to a knob and can be switched to a jack (for in out).

I don't know if the CT5, pitchfactor, or boomerang can take the 0-5v of CV (I think I remember that the CT5 can)...but for the most part, getting the moogs together shouldn't be a problem.

That mixer looks incredible... I really want a small rack of utility modules like that mixed with some crazy processors

[rfurtkamp]

The problem with 1/4 to 3.5 adapters is they're fragile, and the 3.5 input jacks themselves don't seem to hold up as well.

I'm not sure what you're asking for is going to be doable in that size/array - perspective is how much physical space is *not* wasted in a 1/4" 1U studio/rack patchbay.

[lordgalvar]

I think he is just using the 3.5 for the patching part and keeping the runs to the pedals 1/4"

That mixer is pretty neat but pricy.

[rfurtkamp]

Yea, the patching part on a portable bay I'd be skeptical of that many 3.5s - too many recipes for trouble fast.

Also not sure there will be enough shielding at that point either, could be a lot of crosstalk with the typical available 3.5s.

[lordgalvar]

They work fine in modular land. Some of this talk is also about CV mixing.

Also, why would cross talk exist in a ton of pedals with wire going every where inside and patch points? People have crossing wires allover the place too. Yea, duribilty is an issue, but he is trying to make his board a versatile mini modular-like system. It's good to try different stuff even if it is harder, maybe wrong, and unconventional.

SnazzyFX uses 3.5 on his pedals. I dunno, I say go for it and see what happens. Sell it on etsy as an artistic patchbay if it doesn't work. It all about exploring and having fun.

[rfurtkamp]

Yea, just pointing out the potential issues I see.

The 3.5 cables aren't generally shielded at all, which I can see leading to problems.

I try to avoid them where possible.

[Deltaphoenix]

There are a lot of shielded 3.5mm cables for eurorack modulars out there.

So, Invisible Man...what you are doing reminds me of my pedalboard and pedalboard plans in it's heyday. Before the modular ate many of them and ate some amps and basses..... I will see you in the rabbit hole someday me thinks.

Until then, How about looking for a Moog MP-201? I know they are discontinued and generally a little expensive but all of the CV (and midi) control that you could get over your set-up would be great. It would get you part of the way to patch recall (as long as you remember how to repatch your bay) and allow a lot of realtime manipulation of sounds. Plus there is no expression pedal in the world that feels as good as the one on there.
I know where one is at (not mine) so PM me if you want me to connect you with that seller.