when budgets for artistic projects don't budget for artists.

[tabbycat]

thought this article...

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/a ... me-nothing

and this comment...

"Just set a proper budget to start with. If you can't do that and make a profit, accept the loss or don't make the book."

mark the point clearly enough for me.

any thoughts or opinions?

[morange]

And the problem is there are so many goddamn writers who have no idea they’re supposed to be paid ... I don’t take a piss without getting paid for it. . I get so angry. You get undercut by all the amateurs. They make it tough for the professionals.

And because there are so many amateurs prepared to work for free, it means their work is squeezing out work of a professional standard.

Stop Working For Free. That’s my final word.

Pretty much sums it up. Except the question is, is the free work always not as good as professional work? Seems like the amateur stuff must be pretty good if it is making it hard for pros, or the pro stuff isn't good enough.

If people want to create for free, great. Don't blame them if you can't sell your work. That's like whores blaming nymphos for slow business. Hey you're supposed to get paid for that!

Nice photo though. Good for him for saying go fuck yourself. They really should have paid him, they knew he was a professional, that's how it works.

[hbombgraphics]

I don't understand Manson's response at all.
Sounds Like she is saying
"we pay people.........just not you.....but we totally pay people."

I tend to agree that if someone does something for free you can't be mad at them.

[echoraven]

It's odd that I'm fairly certain I will never be a professional musician, photographer, videographer or any of the other creative endeavors that I engage in and yet agree with the article 100% Even joined the facebook group.

[D.o.S.]

And the problem is there are so many goddamn writers who have no idea they’re supposed to be paid ... I don’t take a piss without getting paid for it. . I get so angry. You get undercut by all the amateurs. They make it tough for the professionals.

And because there are so many amateurs prepared to work for free, it means their work is squeezing out work of a professional standard.

Stop Working For Free. That’s my final word.

Pretty much sums it up. Except the question is, is the free work always not as good as professional work? Seems like the amateur stuff must be pretty good if it is making it hard for pros, or the pro stuff isn't good enough.

If people want to create for free, great. Don't blame them if you can't sell your work. That's like whores blaming nymphos for slow business. Hey you're supposed to get paid for that!

Nice photo though. Good for him for saying go fuck yourself. They really should have paid him, they knew he was a professional, that's how it works.

No, there is definitely a gap between professional writing and amateur writing as far as a consistent level of quality is concerned. He's absolutely correct, too, that a lot of people would rather get paid nothing and fancy themselves 'working creative authors' than actually earn a living doing it. And since a lot of people operate under the mistaken assumption that they can write -- since it isn't valued as a unique skillset in the culture at large -- it pushes the people who can do it into advertising or copywriting or something comparatively soul-sucking.

*knocks on wood*

Generally, though, when being asked to 'create' for free, I think Pope's got it nailed: "Your two choices are to give them the permission, valuing your work at zero, or to refuse permission, in which case they will quietly remove you from the list of freelancers they work with so you won’t get any future work." This is an untenable situation, obviously.



This is particularly interesting for me, because I use other peoples imagery for escapecraft, and I haven't paid them for it (despite being, you know, a fulltime writer and entirely sympathetic to this story in both financial history and intellectually). My working assumption, by virtue of the Creative Commons license that each of the photos had, is that credit is enough. Ofc, I haven't gone out of my way to contact them to try and pay for the images, either -- although I would if/when there were a physical release behind it.

[D.o.S.]

Fuck sorry for the public address. Need more coffee.

[backwardsvoyager]

No, there is definitely a gap between professional writing and amateur writing as far as a consistent level of quality is concerned.

Yeah, and i think it can be applied to the whole photography thing quite well. Sure anyone can take a photo and maybe they'll turn out well, but professional photographers exist to do a good job of capturing things consistently, it's kind of scary how little value so many people (even other 'artists') place in such professions.

This is particularly interesting for me, because I use other peoples imagery for escapecraft, and I haven't paid them for it (despite being, you know, a fulltime writer and entirely sympathetic to this story in both financial history and intellectually). My working assumption, by virtue of the Creative Commons license that each of the photos had, is that credit is enough. Ofc, I haven't gone out of my way to contact them to try and pay for the images, either -- although I would if/when there were a physical release behind it.

Which is the totally reasonable approach. If someone sticks a creative commons license on something that's all you need to do.
Publishing a book to sell for profit where the written content is augmented with people's photography, something that really does make a difference in reading enjoyment and appeal, and expecting 'credit' to be enough is really lame. Not nice at all. If you want free pictures for something you're marketing then use your own.

[tabbycat]

I don't understand Manson's response at all.
Sounds Like she is saying
"we pay people.........just not you.....but we totally pay people."

i know what you mean, hbombgraphics. being half-scot myself, my experience of the scots is that they are straight-talkers above all else. am assuming that those extended periods in the LA sun don't agree with her complexion.

in any case i have made a quick translation of her statement that sounds less as if it were made by someone with a record company lawyer's dictionary in their mouth.

"We regret that you interpreted our request so negatively..."
(the request being 'can we make a buck off your ass and not pay you?' which is a fairly negative request to begin with)
"Historically, artists have been known to help each other out in an effort to get their work seen and heard..."
(we have sold seventeen million albums and are still trying to play the struggling artist card so we can make a buck off your ass and not pay you)...
"We are proud and grateful to be part of this artist community..."
(though said community is considering your membership carefully since your gratitude for membership may well stem from your previous successes in making a buck off other members' asses while not paying them)
"Over the years we have happily compensated many photographers, film-makers and other kinds of content providers for their work..."
(were it not for the goodwill we generated by actually paying people we would not have become millionaires, but now we are millionaires we no longer value that goodwill and are now trying to make a buck off those same people's asses while not paying them)
"and will continue to do so in the future..."
(though not in the present apparently, which is where we all actually live and pay bills)
"We believe completely in the concept of the artist being compensated fairly whenever possible..."
(but we are not going to try to justify why we think it wasn't possible in this case because it might make us look like tight cunts).

pay the man, shirl. then get your bonnie wee self back to embra for the summer and clear your head. you're talking shite.

[echoraven]

I don't understand Manson's response at all.
Sounds Like she is saying
"we pay people.........just not you.....but we totally pay people."

i know what you mean, hbombgraphics. being half-scot myself, my experience of the scots is that they are straight-talkers above all else. am assuming that those extended periods in the LA sun don't agree with her complexion.

in any case i have made a quick translation of her statement that sounds less as if it were made by someone with a record company lawyer's dictionary in their mouth.

"We regret that you interpreted our request so negatively..."
(the request being 'can we make a buck off your ass and not pay you?' which is a fairly negative request to begin with)
"Historically, artists have been known to help each other out in an effort to get their work seen and heard..."
(we have sold seventeen million albums and are still trying to play the struggling artist card so we can make a buck off your ass and not pay you)...
"We are proud and grateful to be part of this artist community..."
(though said community is considering your membership carefully since your gratitude for membership may well stem from your previous successes in making a buck off other members' asses while not paying them)
"Over the years we have happily compensated many photographers, film-makers and other kinds of content providers for their work..."
(were it not for the goodwill we generated by actually paying people we would not have become millionaires, but now we are millionaires we no longer value that goodwill and are now trying to make a buck off those same people's asses while not paying them)
"and will continue to do so in the future..."
(though not in the present apparently, which is where we all actually live and pay bills)
"We believe completely in the concept of the artist being compensated fairly whenever possible..."
(but we are not going to try to justify why we think it wasn't possible in this case because it might make us look like tight cunts).

pay the man, shirl. then get your bonnie wee self back to embra for the summer and clear your head. you're talking shite.

Great post.

Thinking about this, I understand if the person is new and looking for exposure but to ask this of a established professional is nothing short of a "dick move".

[rustywire]

Before we scrapped the idea of producing the book entirely, we decided instead that we would take a leaf out of Amanda Palmer’s book “The Power of Asking” and simply ask the photographers themselves whether they wanted to be included in our book or not.

Translation: We use your work, we keep the money made with it.

Poor form.

[hbombgraphics]

Wasn't Manson one of the ones that jumped all over Kanye a few weeks ago?

This Artist on Artist crime has to stop

[D.o.S.]

So in a moment of weakness I went to read the full statement, which was posted on the Garbage facebook page, which means there were comments, and

Hey Garbage, can I use THE POWER OF ASKING and get you to play for free at a party I'm hosting in my home? You can play songs you've already been paid to play in the past so no harm done.The party is on April 27th .

[hbombgraphics]

So in a moment of weakness I went to read the full statement, which was posted on the Garbage facebook page, which means there were comments, and

Hey Garbage, can I use THE POWER OF ASKING and get you to play for free at a party I'm hosting in my home? You can play songs you've already been paid to play in the past so no harm done.The party is on April 27th .

that's great,

I am sure they give away songs for free for movies and stuff as well

[Chuckchuck]

I like giving and receiving gifts it's my "love language" so I'm told.
I used to get photo work from a small magazine. They bought camera & got some interns to volunteer to shoot photos.
Giving gifts is a lovely thing isn't it. Working for free hurts all art. In the same way file sharing does.
I'm not saying people don't want free shit I'm saying it hurts all industries.
Ask established artists they never do anything for free. Like car mechanics.

What value do you place on art? Assuming it's good.

[Chuckchuck]

I'm sick of photography.
Charcoal is where it's at! Paint with tar!
Like butch vig & friends couldn't scrape together a few hundred bucks.,?!