What are you thoughts on cloners?

[Jwar]

So lately I've noticed a huge increase of not just tweaking an existing circuit someone has built, but straight up ripping off their design and making it for sale. Not here, but other places. I don't want to get into specifics, but I want to get a general idea of how other feel about this.


Let's say someone took Brian's TAFM, traced it, then made their own. Now they don't offer it for sale on their website, but it's well known they will build you it or anything else for that matter as long as the price is right.

Or they take an expensive pedal, say a Cornish pedal and despite your feelings on Cornish, answer this without feelings against the man, and he traces it. Then he'll not advertise it directly, but it's a well known fact that he'll make it.

It's beginning to make me think that some of the people in this industry just do not give a fuck about each other. They just don't. But I don't get it? I pay good money for the originals because they are what I want and I believe in the person building them as well.

So what are your thoughts on cloners that sell items? Let's say for arguments sake, only items that are still being manufactured, Not vintage wares of any kind or things no longer being produced.

[D.o.S.]

I wouldn't buy one.

[Chankgeez]

Not so sure this has just been happening "lately".

[Jwar]

Chank you're right, obviously. I just have seen more of an influx of it recently. Maybe I'm just more in tune with it now since I work with builders? I don't know.

DOS you are a man of integrity.

[Chankgeez]

Maybe not only that you're more in tune w/ builders, jwar, but there're more builders than ever before. So, there are more builders to copy.

It's also kinda tricky regarding people who're building clones as a hobby and happen to make a little extra cash selling their builds vs. someone who's trying to make a business of it (on whatever scale).

[backwardsvoyager]

Straight up cloning in-production pedals for 'business' is poor form IMHO.
I think marketing DIY kits for in production pedals is just as bad if not worse. If someone wants to trace it and build their own for leisure then there's no stopping that, but by giving anyone with basic soldering ability everything they need to have said pedal for super cheap you're totally undercutting the person that's making it. This seems to be affecting companies like DBA and Mountainking, right?
I would not be surprised if a lot of emerging 'companies' are cloning newer boutique pedals with it going unnoticed. There are too many brands now, it's so goddamn confusing and it makes me not wanna buy anything new at all

[neonblack]

There are too many brands now, it's so goddamn confusing and it makes me not wanna buy anything new at all

God, this. Thats why I just stick to ILF approved brands hahaha

[Chankgeez]

This seems to be affecting companies like DBA and Mountainking, right?

I think there're supply & demand issues at work here.

[spacelordmother]

This seems to be affecting companies like DBA and Mountainking, right?

I think there're supply & demand issues at work here.

Also (in the case of one entity noted above) the possible justification that a clone will not only cost less, but also be built better than the real deal.

Edit: not that I am implying that it is the case, or that it is in fact justifiable.

[D.o.S.]

Relatedly: one-act cover bands?

[The_Active_Conundrum]

My thoughts on this don't really matter. Since the community was asked, I may as well respond. I see no wrong in making clones. The problem lies in selling of clones of in-production, reasonable pedals.

There's no need to clone....say...a Dwarfcraft Pedal. Something like an Anti-Nautilus would be a maybe as the demand is high, supply is low and there's people making bank reselling.

Now if a person were to trace and clone a Wren and Cuff and give the clone away....like to me for example....that'd be okay. Profitting off a clone or "breaking even" with parts feels bad to me.

[goroth]

There are two things in cloning I am against:

1) Trying to pass of the pedal as an actual unit from a given manufacturer.
2. Directly using the same pcb layout. Which is of course illegal.

Everything else is A-ok in my books.

I don't care if a pedal is in production or out of production. It is irrelevant. As long as you aren't passing it off as someone else's property, and you've drawn the pcb yourself go for it.

If you come up with some blindingly awesome idea then you need to ensure that you have the business acumen to take advantage of getting to the market first with your design. Because you can't patent it, and even 4 layer boards can be traced.

None of our favourite builders would exist without learning by copying other people's hard work. This does not denigrate the hard work they in turn put in to their pedals, but everyone has started by building stuff from Escobodo, Forest Mims, Craig Anderton... where would any of the gear we love be without schematics floating around for the fuzzface, or the big muff? There is so much weird stuff happening in pedals that is the result of 50 years of pushing building blocks beyond their limits, with each new design affecting subsequent designs... the whole effect pedal industry is like an Inception of cloning.

To be clear: Cloning is fair game as long as you do your own legwork and don't try and fob something off as someone else's property. I'd be super pissed if someone started selling Fuzzhugger AB-synths for teh cheapz because Tom=love. But if someone wants to put a couple of Bazz Fuss's in series, add a starve control a feedback pot I say go for it.

[Jwar]

There are two things in cloning I am against:

1) Trying to pass of the pedal as an actual unit from a given manufacturer.
2. Directly using the same pcb layout. Which is of course illegal.

See and this is the point I originally was trying to make. I've seen this. Many, many time. In fact it's sickening. Just today I talked to Roy of Greenhouse about this issues and he told me someone tried to clone one of this circuits awhile back but luckily couldn't do it right because of the SMD circuitry. So you lose mojo (LOL) but gain a sense of "hey this is going to make it a damn chore to clone my shit".

Now I do get when people do it for their own benefit. I do. And even with lower priced brands I get it. But when they sell the copies? That's just wrong to me. I'll never support it.

Now if someone gets permission or takes a public circuit and alters it, that's totally different. All is fair at that point.

I'm talking taking it exactly for what it is and then reselling it. Or what's worse is when a cloner takes the literal guts and just shoves it in their own box. COUGH Vortex COUGH. lol fuckers.

[Jwar]

What about cloning humans?

Any thoughts on that???

[Dr. Sherman Sticks M.D.]

strict policy on not cloning douchebags. lol