jumped the breaker at a show

[Forrrest]

so i had a show tonight. jumped the breaker at the venue.
yes my band is loud, but not that loud (maybe we are but that's not the point)
adding all of our amps we're pushing ~1000 watts, so that's 8.3 amps? how is it we were jumping the 15 amp fuse?
ampeg svt (300watts
ampeg v4 (100 watts
orange OR120 (100 watts
Orange rocerkverb 50 (50 watts
SWR Workingman 2x10C (400 watts

it happened twice, in two songs. we play a 4 song set.. so it kind of killed it.

but it gave people a chance to enjoy my comedy filler (but possibly enjoyed it more then the music

gimme advice.

[fishtankdork]

Never. Play that venue again without furmans. I hate venues with shotty electric.

[skullservant]

Ugh, man that's gotta suck
I've only seen 2 bands that have blown breakers. Both were at Strange Matter in Richmond- the first being Sunn, of course, the second being The Body collaborating with BraveYoung. Surprisingly, though, when Jucifer played they didn't blow the breakers at all? Very bizarre.

[Forrrest]

Never. Play that venue again without furmans.

care to recommend something?

I hate venues with shotty electric.

I'm quite surprised that it happened at this venue, they're quite respectable.

[greyscales]

I've seen this happen wayyyyyyy more times than you would think when I was doing sound/lighting stuff.

Couple questions: 1) Did the PA go out too? 2) Did any other parts of the venue lose power?

More often than not when it happened, it was because the PA, lights, and band were forced onto the same breaker. And a lot of venues have shittier power than you would think.
When using that many amps you should look into the power situation with the venue and sound guys. Some of them won't know shit, that's when you have to be careful. Keep in mind some sound guys run extra power amps, rack gear, mixing consoles, monitors, and massive lighting equipment all at the same time. That draws a LOT of power. I've had the unpleasant experience of accidentally using too many lights and tripping breakers multiple times a night. So it isn't always the band. Sometimes it is the house getting a little too ambitious.

Granted, it could be just about anything.

[Forrrest]

Happened AGAIN tonight.

i'm so pissed.
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUKC FUKC FFUCKFUKCUFKCU FKDUHNF KDUF KDUF

I'm bringing ALL the amps amps to my tech tomorrow to make sure everything is OK with them.
I have a Kill-A-Watt P4400 meter arriving later this week, so I can accurately measure how much power is being consumed.

Any tips on measuring how many Amps are being provided?
tonight the soundguy told us with 100% certainty that we had two separate 15amp circuits.
we plugged one SVT in to each (along with a 100watt amp into each)
after we jumped the breaker and killed our set he corrected himself, and said it was only ONE 15 amp circuit. WTF.
Is there a way to check for myself if two power sources are on the same breaker?

[multi_s]

so i had a show tonight. jumped the breaker at the venue.
yes my band is loud, but not that loud (maybe we are but that's not the point)
adding all of our amps we're pushing ~1000 watts, so that's 8.3 amps? how is it we were jumping the 15 amp fuse?
ampeg svt (300watts
ampeg v4 (100 watts
orange OR120 (100 watts
Orange rocerkverb 50 (50 watts
SWR Workingman 2x10C (400 watts

it happened twice, in two songs. we play a 4 song set.. so it kind of killed it.

but it gave people a chance to enjoy my comedy filler (but possibly enjoyed it more then the music

gimme advice.

also just FYI when most amps are advertised as say, 100 watts, it means they OUTPUT 100 watts to the speaker. They likely consume much more power from the mains supply than the output rating. I'm not that famliiar with the different amp models you said, but tube amps are in general not that efficient. At best probably about 60 -70 percent, and possibly less than 50 percent depending on the design topology and bias(class A, AB, B , D etc). So, what i mean is that if they are advertised as 100 Watts, and say 65 percent efficient, then that means Output power/ Input Power = .65, so in this example it would draw but about 150 watts to Output 100 watts. And that is usually just an average, peak consumption, which is probably what triggers the breaker, could be higher than the amps specified rating momentarily.

Usually there is a rating in AMPS (A) on the back of amplifiers. If you multiply this by 120V or whatever your countries line level is you will typically get a value (in watts) much higher than your amplifiers specified to output power. And that is simply because they are talking about the current consumed (->multiply by line level to get input power). If there is no information on the back like that, look in the manual. It should say or should be available form the manufacturer. Once you have all these current ratings add them up and compare with 15A. If you are pushing 1000 watts output power I would say there is a reasonable chance you are breaking or getting very close to 15A input current just with your amplifier setup. And as a previous poster mentioned, if there are lights or a PA on the same breaker, good luck.

[Forrrest]

you're totally right.

I got a kill-a-watt meter to read my amps actual consumption.

Here's the power consumption readings I get maxing out the amps:
ampeg svt (8.5 amps
ampeg v4 (2.9 amps
orange OR120 (3.5 amps

next show we play, got it guaranteed that we're getting TWO 15amp circuits.
is there an easy way of checking that the two circuits we're given actually are on different 15amp breakers? (instead of just trusting the soundman)

[multi_s]

i dont know if there is an easy way to check. maybe just overload one of the outlets, then see if the other one is still working during soundcheck

that meter looks handy though.

[Forrrest]

I had the idea that since I can measure the wall voltage (with that Kill-a-watt) I could measure the wall voltage with amps on and with amps off. Turning on an SVT always reduces the voltage (difference of ~0.4 volts). If they're completely independent circuits the voltage wont drop. At my practice space we have a double pole breaker, yet the voltage pulled through one 15amp side seems to affect the other circuit as well with this test. I don't understand why (unless the guy was just lying about having it set up this way)

Also if I jump one and they both turn off.
I don't know exactly how they work inside fuse boxes to understand a workaround.

[rfurtkamp]

What sort of dives are you playing that this is a regular occurrence?

You're not running *that* much gear to be honest.

I had power go out a few times but it was a regular occurrence at the venues where it did but if they have the space for that many amps to be turned up at any volume, they should also have the power.

Breakers blowing usually won't damage the amp unless there's something else going on that tripped the breaker (and then the tripping of the breaker probably cut off the offending problem).

That said, I ran a UPS for years to keep clean power to the amps (I hate breakup that I can't control) and to keep the old effects happy. Wasn't cheap, wasn't light, but I had an extra from doing some server installs when I pulled an older unit and the client just let me keep it.

Knowing what you're using power-wise won't save you from brownouts or spikes, but again, it's not like you're powering the Motorhead stage show here either.

[multi_s]

I had the idea that since I can measure the wall voltage (with that Kill-a-watt) I could measure the wall voltage with amps on and with amps off. Turning on an SVT always reduces the voltage (difference of ~0.4 volts). If they're completely independent circuits the voltage wont drop. At my practice space we have a double pole breaker, yet the voltage pulled through one 15amp side seems to affect the other circuit as well with this test. I don't understand why (unless the guy was just lying about having it set up this way)

Also if I jump one and they both turn off.
I don't know exactly how they work inside fuse boxes to understand a workaround.

Ya that wont work as your saying because they aren't independent circuits. On the other side of the fuses everything comes from the same source. Here i tried to make a crude sketch. But the bottom lien is to say, im not sure there is a way to check without having access to the panel and turning one breaker off to see if both outlets you have are on the same breaker or not.

[multi_s]

What sort of dives are you playing that this is a regular occurrence?

You're not running *that* much gear to be honest.

Here's the power consumption readings I get maxing out the amps:
ampeg svt (8.5 amps
ampeg v4 (2.9 amps
orange OR120 (3.5 amps

thats 14.9 amps, a normal breaker blows at 15. so it may not seem like that much stuff but...

[Forrrest]

granted those are measurements with amps dimed
but we're also running TWO svt's now.. so enough to jump a single 15a indeed.



I get your drawing
but wtf happens in a building with 100+ jam spaces (like cite 2000?)
everyone turns on their amps - the voltage drops to 80volts?
I thought a two pole breaker would have each side drawing from a different bus bar
each busbar out of phase from each other allowing for 240vold wiring when needed
& each breaker, as you go down your box, alternates which busbar it is connected to...
does each busbar draw from the same main?

overload one of the outlets,

it seems like a jerk thing to do, but i'm going to just do this.
pack two 1500watt hair dryers and test them during setup should do the trick.
if it's really two circuits we'll be alright for the night.
if not we'll just jump the breaker before the show.

[multi_s]

i think you are right about the dual breaker connection, im only speculating cause i have no idea how your space is wired up but see this picture:


so both sides of the dual breaker are 'one half' of the center tapped side of the xfmr. On the other side of that xfmr, it is one source. SO maybe, if you consider the picture in my last post, losses in the wiring BEFORE the xfmr would indeed reduce the voltage of BOTH halves of the center tapped side, even if only ONE half of the center tapped side was responsible for pulling the current.

this may not be what's happening. its just a possible explanation.

as for why the lights dont dim when everyone is playing... id geuss that the connection from hydro kebek to your building is on a pretty fat wire. hoewever once its in your building, it may be distrubuted on smaller conductors that are more lossy, but sort of in a "star" configuration to smaller panels. So you pulling the voltage down half a volt or so in your space may not be seen on teh guy next door since that drop is happening over the wiring of your arm of the star, not over the link from hydro to your building. IE at the main entry point the voltage is not reduced. Again im just guessing, im not an electrician, and have little experience in that area.


In all likelyhood there is a main panel; that redistrubutes to many smaller xmfs in your building. at my workspace we have an xfmr half the size of a fridge right in the atelier for example.

EDIT: re why teh lights dont go out everytime slayer plays next door: it may also be as the pitcure shows, the input voltage to these xfmrs is way more than 120 or 240. Lets just say its 10 times mains, then 1 amp pulled on the secondary (mains side), is only .1 amps on the primary (high/distribution side). So even if the wiring guage was the same on the hydro kebek side, the losses per meter are 10 times less since the same power is available at 10 times less the current.. food for thought.