Prymaxe Vintage sucks, but let's talk about food too! :)

[behndy]

i lurv me some Prymaxe. Analogue Haven has some insane stuff, but they're in Cali and don't do coupons so it's way more espensive for me to order from thems.

durn it.

[Jack Deville]

Okay, okay, okay. I'm interested.

Here's the problem I have with a "constant sale" model:

Product is purchased from distributor/manufacturer at a price of $xxx.xxx and agreed to be sold for a price greater than or equal to $XXX.XX by the retail channel. The numbers determined by the involved parties (hopefully) are well planned and allow everyone to benefit: manufacturing/distribution, retail channel, customer/end-user.
The retail channel begins to discount product to compensate for unsatisfactory sales figures (for whatever reason) and increase sales volume. Simple strategy, right?
The customer/end-user appreciates the reduction in cost from the retailer and enjoys the same great product normally priced at $XXX.XX for $XXX.XX * (0.85), or some number less than one, thus saving $XXX.XX * 0.15, or some number less than one. Everybody is happy. Manufacturing/distribution is getting their product bought and sold, retail channel is pushing weight, customer enjoys spending less money on product and more on beer.
Concerns arise when observing where the function converges, or the end-behavior of the function.

Lets talk about something many of us can relate to: dope.

I'm going by the prices in the bay area around 1995 - 2000, so if shit seems strange by today's standards, or even your own in that time/place, just substitute your own prices and linearly scale the prices.

An 1/8th (3.5g) typically costs $50.
A dime (0.5g) is $10, and a dub (1g) is $20.
If you knew people, maybe you were paying $45, or even $40, but at $40, it was rare that it was sticky-icky-super-chronic.

Either way, a new dealer decides he wants to get in the game. So he buys a zip. He got player pricing and paid $275. Not bad for the new kid. Sold in 1/8ths, he stands to make $125 ($50 * 8 = $400; $400 - $275 = $125).
However, he realizes that if he's pushing at $50, he's not offering anything anyone else isn't; and everyone has the shit. Or at least acceptable commercial grade shit.
So our hero makes the realization/conclusion that if he cuts a little of his profits, he can earn more customers. So he's pushing at $40 / 1/8th to gain customers. Sure he's only gonna make $45 on the zip rather than $125, but he's gonna flip it in an hour. Totally killer.
Aside from pissing off the other dealers who are losing market-share (customers) our hero is inadvertently fucking himself out of his own money. But you have to look at the end behavior of his actions to see it (assuming he isn't shot for pulling this crap).

Everybody in the bay is used to buying $50 1/8ths. Now they can get em for $40 if they call the new kid. So the new kid gets all kinds of business and before he gets shot, nobody can sell an 1/8th for $50; they gotta sell it at $40. That means EVERYBODY is making $45 / zip unless they're pushing weight or have some better pricing, even under those terms, their still not making the cash they were when 1/8ths were $50. Well, the value of pot drops to $40 / 1/8th and the days of $50 1/8ths are behind us. Pretty tight for the smoker/customer, but fucked up for everyone upstream and here's why:

The new kid gets sick of making $45 / zip, because that's a lot of risk for $45 bucks. So he demands better pricing from his distributor. If he doesn't get his ass kicked, the distributor has to cut his profits to satisfy the new trend appearing in the market: $40 1/8ths. Follow it a little farther and the distributor is bitching at his grower because he's not paying $1600 / lb anymore, he only makes $200 on the deal, and that's a lot of work and risk for $200. Now he wants to pay $900 / lb. Assuming the grower doesn't shoot him, the grower just lost $700 / lb, which would be fine if he didn't care about money, but he's got a kid to feed and bills to pay. Which means he's gotta do something to compensate. Maybe that means shorter cure time, maybe it means less tight a trim, maybe it means more plants in the same amount of light, etc., etc., etc. The bottom line is dope is $40 / 1/8th now and nobody is paying $50.

That's fine, but now the new kid doesn't have any competitive advantage, AND he's still not making money like dudes used to before he pulled this crap, so he cuts his price to $35 / 1/8th. Assuming the tennis shoe ballers on the corner don't shoot him for fucking up their hustle, he's further depressing the value of the product, and while that is tight for the customer, as the trend continues, distro starts pushing blow because the money is better. The growers pack it up and move north because that's just how it goes, and nobody wants to get into the pot game.

Then the customer doesn't have any weed. And that's weak.

Really, this is just basic economics. Its frightening that this kind of shit is tolerated, but hey, you can't really control the behavior of others, without LSD.


Enjoy the sales while they're available, and don't be shocked when that radical discount company mysteriously shuts down.

[behndy]

oop. only read the first page before i posted that, just got through the rest.

Jwar - if the pedal's beat to shit or used, get them to send you a new one. fuck that.

i've always had them ship me stuff in boxes, i think the 2 Possessed i have where the last things i got from them? that was about 3 or so months ago i think.

i've always wondered how they can afford to cut into the margins so much too though.

Mssr. Deville - that makes a lot of sense.

but what i hear. is that builders need to strap up and go renegotiate their percentages.

at gunpoint.

ne?

DO IT. RIDE DIRTY. BUILD MUFFS.

[Ryan]

Jack Deville

So well said and so needed to be said...

[Jack Deville]

oop. only read the first page before i posted that, just got through the rest.

Jwar - if the pedal's beat to shit or used, get them to send you a new one. fuck that.

i've always had them ship me stuff in boxes, i think the 2 Possessed i have where the last things i got from them? that was about 3 or so months ago i think.

i've always wondered how they can afford to cut into the margins so much too though.

Mssr. Deville - that makes a lot of sense.

but what i hear. is that builders need to strap up and go renegotiate their percentages.

at gunpoint.

ne?

DO IT. RIDE DIRTY. BUILD MUFFS.

Have a look at U.S. international policies.

[DarkAxel]

Well said, the thing is...

when there's a dealer who sells the same shit for 40, why would I buy it for 50?

And you can say "because you want the business to survive"
and then I say "yeah, that's an honorable idea, but no one cares about the big picture, everyone wants his shit as cheap as possible" (of course in balance with quality)

human nature I guess?

I, for example, would rather buy it for 15% less, because in the end, EU is going to fuck me over another 20%, so this way I can at least compensate a bit ... So as much as i'd like to play this game right, I simply won't because of the money

[Jack Deville]

Well said, the thing is...

when there's a dealer who sells the same shit for 40, why would I buy it for 50?

And you can say "because you want the business to survive"
and then I say "yeah, that's an honorable idea, but no one cares about the big picture, everyone wants his shit as cheap as possible" (of course in balance with quality)

human nature I guess?

I, for example, would rather buy it for 15% less, because in the end, EU is going to fuck me over another 20%, so this way I can at least compensate a bit ... So as much as i'd like to play this game right, I simply won't because of the money

You wouldn't buy it for $50! That's the crux of the entire principal.

See above.

[sonidero]

Jack Deville

So well said and so needed to be said...

The cool guy street spelling is enough to keep me from ordering... It sounds like some sort of hip new untested Prostate drug from Estonia...

If you love ILF and it's builders then Order from those builders... I have never gotten a response from a builder here saying "check Prymaxe they're cheaper"... I'd rather pay what the builder wants cause that's what he want's and I LOVE ILF!!!

[Chankgeez]

... i've always wondered how they can afford to cut into the margins so much too though.

They're hoping to make up for it by selling pedals in greater quantities.

[Ryan]

I didn't mean to say anything negative about Prymaxe, I think they're one of the best stores I've worked with and I've worked with them for years.. I feel customers are very safe in their hands, lots of trust there.

I like discounts too, they're cool and Tanya and I wait to buy things sometimes so we can get a discount, but the problem is constant advertised discounts... that's what I don't go for. They devalue my work, they devalue that store's work, and they devalue alllll the store's work in an unfair way.

You can still get a discount on my pedals at Prymaxe but only on sales dates that I've set, like seasonal holidays. Next up will be the July 1-4th sale.

And I betcha you can still contact them and arrange a better price, that's always been the nature of buying stuff, the ol' "what's the best you can do for me I've got cash in hand" kinda scenario, but to everyday discount products across the board is an unreasonable short term plan, in my opinion.

[colin]

The constant sales at Prymaxe and Proguitarshop are totally getting out of hand. I used to sometimes buy stuff I wasn't planning on because of a good sale price, but now that they have those sales all the time I simply couldn't care less about them. The number of emails Prymaxe and PGS send out are ridiculous too, something like one every other day.

They need to go back to just having sales a few times a year or during the bigger holidays. It really is bad for other businesses, and even the used market, as people have become reluctant to buy pedals at full price. And I'm just as guilty of this as anyone, hell I had a pedal show up from Prymaxe just today.

[theshoegazer]

They're pretty much the only place I buy new pedals from. Such awesome customer service and deals galore. I wish they would get some more Lastgasp and MASF stuff in though...

[behndy]

i buy a decent amount of peds, but it's usually from a builder i know and have talked to. maybe it's weird, but if possible i'd rather buy direct from someone that i want to support and keep them building amazing things than save $20.

if not straight from a builder, i check my local store that i want to stay in business first then Prymaxe it up.

[MEC]

Okay, okay, okay. I'm interested.

Here's the problem I have with a "constant sale" model:

Product is purchased from distributor/manufacturer at a price of $xxx.xxx and agreed to be sold for a price greater than or equal to $XXX.XX by the retail channel. The numbers determined by the involved parties (hopefully) are well planned and allow everyone to benefit: manufacturing/distribution, retail channel, customer/end-user.
The retail channel begins to discount product to compensate for unsatisfactory sales figures (for whatever reason) and increase sales volume. Simple strategy, right?
The customer/end-user appreciates the reduction in cost from the retailer and enjoys the same great product normally priced at $XXX.XX for $XXX.XX * (0.85), or some number less than one, thus saving $XXX.XX * 0.15, or some number less than one. Everybody is happy. Manufacturing/distribution is getting their product bought and sold, retail channel is pushing weight, customer enjoys spending less money on product and more on beer.
Concerns arise when observing where the function converges, or the end-behavior of the function.

Lets talk about something many of us can relate to: dope.

I'm going by the prices in the bay area around 1995 - 2000, so if shit seems strange by today's standards, or even your own in that time/place, just substitute your own prices and linearly scale the prices.

An 1/8th (3.5g) typically costs $50.
A dime (0.5g) is $10, and a dub (1g) is $20.
If you knew people, maybe you were paying $45, or even $40, but at $40, it was rare that it was sticky-icky-super-chronic.

Either way, a new dealer decides he wants to get in the game. So he buys a zip. He got player pricing and paid $275. Not bad for the new kid. Sold in 1/8ths, he stands to make $125 ($50 * 8 = $400; $400 - $275 = $125).
However, he realizes that if he's pushing at $50, he's not offering anything anyone else isn't; and everyone has the shit. Or at least acceptable commercial grade shit.
So our hero makes the realization/conclusion that if he cuts a little of his profits, he can earn more customers. So he's pushing at $40 / 1/8th to gain customers. Sure he's only gonna make $45 on the zip rather than $125, but he's gonna flip it in an hour. Totally killer.
Aside from pissing off the other dealers who are losing market-share (customers) our hero is inadvertently fucking himself out of his own money. But you have to look at the end behavior of his actions to see it (assuming he isn't shot for pulling this crap).

Everybody in the bay is used to buying $50 1/8ths. Now they can get em for $40 if they call the new kid. So the new kid gets all kinds of business and before he gets shot, nobody can sell an 1/8th for $50; they gotta sell it at $40. That means EVERYBODY is making $45 / zip unless they're pushing weight or have some better pricing, even under those terms, their still not making the cash they were when 1/8ths were $50. Well, the value of pot drops to $40 / 1/8th and the days of $50 1/8ths are behind us. Pretty tight for the smoker/customer, but fucked up for everyone upstream and here's why:

The new kid gets sick of making $45 / zip, because that's a lot of risk for $45 bucks. So he demands better pricing from his distributor. If he doesn't get his ass kicked, the distributor has to cut his profits to satisfy the new trend appearing in the market: $40 1/8ths. Follow it a little farther and the distributor is bitching at his grower because he's not paying $1600 / lb anymore, he only makes $200 on the deal, and that's a lot of work and risk for $200. Now he wants to pay $900 / lb. Assuming the grower doesn't shoot him, the grower just lost $700 / lb, which would be fine if he didn't care about money, but he's got a kid to feed and bills to pay. Which means he's gotta do something to compensate. Maybe that means shorter cure time, maybe it means less tight a trim, maybe it means more plants in the same amount of light, etc., etc., etc. The bottom line is dope is $40 / 1/8th now and nobody is paying $50.

That's fine, but now the new kid doesn't have any competitive advantage, AND he's still not making money like dudes used to before he pulled this crap, so he cuts his price to $35 / 1/8th. Assuming the tennis shoe ballers on the corner don't shoot him for fucking up their hustle, he's further depressing the value of the product, and while that is tight for the customer, as the trend continues, distro starts pushing blow because the money is better. The growers pack it up and move north because that's just how it goes, and nobody wants to get into the pot game.

Then the customer doesn't have any weed. And that's weak.

Really, this is just basic economics. Its frightening that this kind of shit is tolerated, but hey, you can't really control the behavior of others, without LSD.


Enjoy the sales while they're available, and don't be shocked when that radical discount company mysteriously shuts down.

I think it'd be a lot easier to get most of the good growers/distributors to stop selling to the new kid
than to get the new kid's customers to pay more money for the same product.

Eventually the new kid will be stuck selling stems and seeds. AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT.

[pewtershmit]

I deleted Prymaxe emails months ago due to the constant spamming, not that I don't do business with them. Though there have been 3 times where I've re-signed up for the email to see if they're running a coupon code and each time I've literally gotten a sale % email within 24 hours. Then I unsub again until next time.

I don't really blame them though. I mean YES it hurts manufacturers in the long run, but online retail business is a fuckin shit show. Internet buyers are unruly and have very little loyalty. It's kill or be killed.