The Doom Room: ILF Edition

[Ancient Astronaught]

Bass players:
Have you used an 810 and 415 together before?
I haven't used either, I've only used either 215's or 412's for as long as I can remember.
Jammed with 2 guitar players last night for the first time in years and it gave me the heads up I need to get some more cabs and another head.
So I've been kicking around the idea of getting another head, and either an 810 with a 215 and 412 or an 810 with a 415. I understand the lugging around and stuff will be alot harder, but I'll figure it out.

What are you currently using as far as cabs, and what tuning will you be using? I'm just using a 2x15 at the moment but I've played through all of the above before, and I would say your best bet would be the 8x10 + 4x15 but you'd need one hell of a power amp or two heads. The reason is that with 15's and 10's you cover more of the sonic spectrum (in general probably 40hz-6khz) and will get a flatter more even response / tone from your cabs. The 12's won't cover any ground that 10's and 15's paired together wouldn't so you would end up with a very mid heavy tone that could be tough to EQ correctly.

[Droneforbreakfast]

for bass i'd just get two 2x15's at this point of my life. and a nice compressor.

[MSUsousaphone]

The douche theory but probably correct one is that there will be phasing issues mixing the drivers like that. Think of your cabs as boats and the sound they produce as the wake. If the wake is different, it'll eventually run all up on eachother and breakup. Using the same drivers would be like a identical wakes. More sound. Mixing the cabs would make more initial volume but the same drivers will produce more volume the further out it goes.

The doom answer is FUCKING HELLZ YEAH MOTHERFUCKING STACK THAT MOTHERFUCKING SHIT BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING LOUD AND AWESEOME!!!!!

[Droneforbreakfast]

The douche theory but probably correct one is that there will be phasing issues mixing the drivers like that. Think of your cabs as boats and the sound they produce as the wake. If the wake is different, it'll eventually run all up on eachother and breakup. Using the same drivers would be like a identical wakes. More sound. Mixing the cabs would make more initial volume but the same drivers will produce more volume the further out it goes.

The doom answer is FUCKING HELLZ YEAH MOTHERFUCKING STACK THAT MOTHERFUCKING SHIT BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING LOUD AND AWESEOME!!!!!

it is usually the right answer too. we like volume.

[dazedbyday]

Skip, that Ibanez sounds pretty cool and it definitely has that Moog vibe going on.

[Ancient Astronaught]

NOTE: MSU this honestly isn't all directed at you, its really directed at the mixing drivers mentality as a whole, and a rant i've been holding in for a long time....

I prefer producing a fuller and wider range of sound by mixing drivers, I'll take the 3db loss of volume 50ft from my cabs that are going through a PA that's mixing drivers as well....

Now how can TB be so anti-mixing drivers, yet love dually / fEARful / fEARless cabs to death? That's mixing three different speakers all within the same enclosure, so it should sound like shit right? phase cancellation from inside the cab, wave cancellation outside.... but they praise it as gods gift to bass.

I'm sorry but I find the mixing drivers line BS. First thing I learned in audio recording school, trust your EARS not your EYES. The principles of science are only absolute in a perfect environment, a live stage is the exact opposite of a perfect audio environment. You have wave producers all over the stage (guitar amps, bass amps, monitors, FOH cabs, etc) if you think that 1 person in that room can hear the phase cancellation of mixing drivers in your bass rig while your band is rocking through FOH, then your nuts. And if mixing drivers is scientifically bad then why does every decent venue have a FOH with 18" subs, 15" mains, and tweeters or huge subs and line arrays? DONT LISTEN TO BUILDERS WHO WANT TO CHARGE YOU 2500$ FOR A CAB!!!!!!!

/rant

[Ancient Astronaught]

Skip, that Ibanez sounds pretty cool and it definitely has that Moog vibe going on.

yes yes it does x 2

[dazedbyday]

I have to agree on not worrying about mixing drivers. Any phasing problems would probably be minimal and it would be different depending upon position in the room anyway. So the audience will hear something slightly different on one side of the room compared to the other. You will never get a perfect response.

Also have you guys seen the new EHX multi pedal. It is a pog, electric mistriss and reverb in one. Pretty neat sounding.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcaRDEQH38U[/youtube]

[Ancient Astronaught]

I have to agree on not worrying about mixing drivers. Any phasing problems would probably be minimal and it would be different depending upon position in the room anyway. So the audience will hear something slightly different on one side of the room compared to the other. You will never get a perfect response.

Exactly, if we were talking about designing a mastering suite and a perfect listening environment then yes lets throw all the science we can at it but its still going to be setup for one particular spot in the entire room, anywhere else is going to have some kind of scientifically provable deficiency (that most likely the human ear is not sensitive enough to notice consciously). Sound is perception, and your thoughts can alter perception. If your convinced that mixing drivers is bad your mind is going to force you to find a way to perceive what you believe, whether its really there or not.

[MSUsousaphone]

The three way cabs have crossovers built into them. So that a certain frequencies come out of certain speakers. This is great for two reasons, 1) You don't get that strain sound that some speakers get when they're trying to produce a sound it's not fully capable of handling, 2) As long as the two cabs you're using are the same 12/6/1 and 12sub or something like that, there won't be any phase cancelation problems because only one speaker is being used for that frequency. Think about the waves, man, the waves. If you have two gigantic tankers trailing eachother.....but one of them is slightly bigger and wider while the other one is more slender and longer....the waves will be differnent. Sure they'll be huge at first. But eventually they start to run into eachother. In our minds they'll combine to make super waves but it doesn't work like that. They break eachother up. Mixing the cabs may get you louder stage volume but it won't be louder further away.

Kinda the same principle but way exagerating it, we have the three boys sleeping in one bedroom and the two girls in another. One is listening to Black Sabbath lullaby stuff the other to Pearl Jam. From our beedroom, it's a jumbled mess with our door open, but if the radios were playing the same thing and synced, it would be MUCH louder. Now cabs of two different drivers are mostly playing the same thing....like 98%. But everyone agrees that a 15 produces a little different sound than a 10 or a 12. Otherwise there's not point in haveing different size drivers. They DO produce different sounds. It's that 2% that keep reverberating off of eachother. Breaking shit up. Destroying your waves. Like a bunch of little jet skis messing with your wake. It's science.

Now maybe the mixed drivers makes a cooler sound. I actually tend to agree with that. I like the sound of a few 10s and a 15. Makes it kinda fat and muddy in a cool way. It's not efficient. But it's cooler tonality-wise. But you gotta know it'll be a bit muddier past the stage. Which again, could be a cool thing.

[Ancient Astronaught]

The three way cabs have crossovers built into them. So that a certain frequencies come out of certain speakers. This is great for two reasons, 1) You don't get that strain sound that some speakers get when they're trying to produce a sound it's not fully capable of handling, 2) As long as the two cabs you're using are the same 12/6/1 and 12sub or something like that, there won't be any phase cancelation problems because only one speaker is being used for that frequency. Think about the waves, man, the waves. If you have two gigantic tankers trailing eachother.....but one of them is slightly bigger and wider while the other one is more slender and longer....the waves will be differnent. Sure they'll be huge at first. But eventually they start to run into eachother. In our minds they'll combine to make super waves but it doesn't work like that. They break eachother up. Mixing the cabs may get you louder stage volume but it won't be louder further away.

Kinda the same principle but way exagerating it, we have the three boys sleeping in one bedroom and the two girls in another. One is listening to Black Sabbath lullaby stuff the other to Pearl Jam. From our beedroom, it's a jumbled mess with our door open, but if the radios were playing the same thing and synced, it would be MUCH louder. Now cabs of two different drivers are mostly playing the same thing....like 98%. But everyone agrees that a 15 produces a little different sound than a 10 or a 12. Otherwise there's not point in haveing different size drivers. They DO produce different sounds. It's that 2% that keep reverberating off of eachother. Breaking shit up. Destroying your waves. Like a bunch of little jet skis messing with your wake. It's science.

Now maybe the mixed drivers makes a cooler sound. I actually tend to agree with that. I like the sound of a few 10s and a 15. Makes it kinda fat and muddy in a cool way. It's not efficient. But it's cooler tonality-wise. But you gotta know it'll be a bit muddier past the stage. Which again, could be a cool thing.

I completely understand where your coming from, I just believe that we (anti-mixers vs mixers) are looking at the bigger picture differently (it boils down to coming out of FOH or not). I think my problem is that 95% of the time I don't need my sound to go out far enough to cause the standing or colliding wave cancellation your referring to. In reality I only need it to go from between 1-3 inches or no inches at all, depending on if I'm mic'd or Di'd (or sometimes both). I let FOH handle everything for the crowd, my amp is a stage monitor, I don't care if the 2% of my bass rigs stage tone is lost 40ft out on the left side cause FOH has all ready killed that wave before it got there. These mixing speakers is bad principles only apply to situations where you are not going through FOH (because otherwise your tone and speaker frequency output is fairly redundant in that arena), which for me right now is a rare event. Also just so its clear I don't currently mix drivers in my bass rig, but I do in my guitar rig.

[new05002]

Ron's review of that Ibanez delay skip

Update on the new Ibanez ES2 (Echo Shifter) delay.

After playing around with it all weekend, most of my intial thoughts still stand.

1. There's no reason a delay this cool should be so cheap.
2. Great dark delays with really nice smooth repeats that degrade in a very pleasing way
3. Great oscillation options, can do the infinite wash under what you're playing without ever going into self oscillation (although it can definitely do crazy self oscilations).
4. Good modulation section.
5. Tap Tempo

The only down sides I've come across is

1. I wish the slider for delay time was sturdier, it doesn't feel cheap or anything, just in comparison to a normal pot, it feels weaker.
2. Can't set tap tempo when the unit is bypassed
3. No option for trails, not the biggest issue, but it's a nice feature that a lot of delay pedals are including these days.


But those three minor little things really don't outweigh how cool this delay is. If you're looking for something with tap tempo and dark analog repeats. I would definitely look into this (way better than the Supa-puss which is $100 more, never owned the EHX deluxe memory boy so I can't compare that one, everything else is about double or triple the price range for an analog tap tempo delay).

[new05002]

this demo is not bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7uXGeDxlSw

[Bassboar]

Bass players:
Have you used an 810 and 415 together before?
I haven't used either, I've only used either 215's or 412's for as long as I can remember.
Jammed with 2 guitar players last night for the first time in years and it gave me the heads up I need to get some more cabs and another head.
So I've been kicking around the idea of getting another head, and either an 810 with a 215 and 412 or an 810 with a 415. I understand the lugging around and stuff will be a lot harder, but I'll figure it out.

So you're going to run one head into the 415 and another into the 810, correct?
Make sure you eq them so they are complimentary to one another.
Like, have the 810 pumping the lows and the 415 pumping mids, or vice versa.
That will help negate any phasing issues.
Having all those cabs coming from one source is what will give you problems.
But so lang as you are smart with the eq, you will be fine.

[fallen]

Make the OrMat pedal.

GT120 OD already tested and approved. Boards orders And artwork being produced

That was easy.

How huge are you making it? FAC Off sized or maybe smaller?