DO YOU FEAR DEATH????

[devnulljp]

one of my notions is that what we call "God" and what creates/allows some of the unexplained phenomena is the missing force that is needed to satisfy and complete the Unified Field Theory. i also entertain the notion that peoples' "past-life experiences" could be explained by the idea that the mind consciousness, like most electrical field phenomena, dissipates when its source is removed and what's actually happening is that little bits of loose consciousness that have scattered into the universe sometimes pass into living peoples' field of perception like neutrinos.

That sure sounds all kinda sciency and all, but until there's not a shred of evidence for any of it. Nor does it actually make any sense.

And your precognitive dreams ... confirmation bias and confabulation. Sorry.

[Ghost Hip]

I'm going to be a little open with an under-developed idea here. I am beginning to believe we are spirits that learn (for lack of a better term) more throughout each life time until we reach a certain "enlightenment" (again, for lack of a better term). So every person or spirit we meet is at a different stage in their process to reach 'enlightenment' (whatever you want to call it).

So I don't really fear death. I have began see my body, mind, and life to be part of a progression of a spirit.

And the evidence on which you base this position is ... ?

Oh, nothing? Well...

Spoiler: Stop being a dick.

NSFW: show

Dude, I am not even trying to argue, that is not the point at all. I said under-developed as in just started thinking about the idea. Please don't be a dick just because I view the world differently than you. If your view of the world comforts you and my view comforts me, then why do you even care?

I mean fuck, maybe you are right, and I haven't gotten to that point of knowledge yet. I am not saying this is the end all be all idea, and I do not think my post reflected I was that confident with this idea. You have clearly lived longer than I have and have seen more, but that does not give you the privilege to be a huge cunt. I MEAN REALLY THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU JUST SAID TO ME. I came into a thread, coming down from a few beers and decide "hey, I've been thinking about this idea, I'll share it within the confidence of my ILF bros." I even try to save some face and say it is under-developed. You read my idea and just flat out say "fuck you, you're wrong." Why are you so scared of my idea? Why is it when I shared a modest idea of the world, you felt the need to shut it down immediately without even considering or appreciating it's creative value? Why does my idea threaten your idea?

People like you hinder discussions by shutting people down who don't believe or think the same way you do. I mean just the way you presented your evidence. Why should I watch that video if you didn't even consider my modest idea? Why should I even share my thoughts on why I think that way with you? You are probably going to dismiss them. There are so many better ways you could have gotten me to watch that video and believe what you believe.

[Ghost Hip]

Damn, you are scared of everyone else's ideas too. Really, can you just be a friendly guy when talking about this? We are not here to harm your idea, but you are kicking our ideas down immediately without regard to our self esteem. There is no call for that, no matter who is right or who has evidence.

[Ghost Hip]

It is funny you posted this yet have no concern for our self esteem when discussing our ideas. You are being flattened by the trivialities of what does or does not happen when we die. You are so terrorized by it that you are shutting us down immediately and not showing any compassion for the other.

[Big Mon]

Yeah, I started this thread because I recently read Phaedo for my Intro Philosophy class. It was one of Plato's Dialogues wherein Plato (who was absent prior to Socrates' execution) uses his imagination to give an account of what Socrates might have said to his followers before the Hemlock bit. Socrates basically stated that the philosophical, examined life was in fact, a preparation for death. Socrates examined 2 distinct possibilities: one being an afterlife, the other being an eternal and dreamless sleep. Neither of which gave him any reason to fear death. My intention when starting this thread was twofold: One being, talking about this may well lend some comfort to those who fear death, as it is a heavy subject. And permanent. The other was to give each member of the board an opportunity to share their views on the matter without ridicule or scrutiny (the main rule here on ILF being "don't be an asshole"). If people would stop using their differences as a means of choosing a side and attacking the opposite of that world view, then the world would be less of a downer.

[jfrey]

The other was to give each member of the board an opportunity to share their views on the matter without ridicule or scrutiny (the main rule here on ILF being "don't be an asshole"). If people would stop using their differences as a means of choosing a side and attacking the opposite of that world view, then the world would be less of a downer.

I feel like I'm always starting posts with 'It isn't my intention to argue or offend, but...'

So anyway, I'll just post some relevant quotes instead of getting into this much myself.

NSFW: show

"I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves."
- Christopher Hitchens

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
- Christopher Hitchens

"Belief is the death of intelligence."
- Robert Anton Wilson

"If there are two opposing ideas, it is not always true that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It is possible that one person is simply wrong."
- Richard Dawkins

"For my money, the best humanitarians don't coddle us. They challenge us — sometimes aggressively. To be our best selves. They confront us with our stupidities, our pretences, our self-delusions and deceptions. Not with the agenda of diminishing us, bringing us into line, herding us into some grubby little flock. But in fact the opposite — shaking us out of our complacency, our groupthink, our self-indulgence and pig-ignorance."
- Theremin Trees

"I respect you as a person too much to respect your ridiculous beliefs."
- Johann Hari

This all being said, I have never considered pointing out reality to be 'being an asshole'. It's what I want others to do for me should they ever find me with distorted perceptions about the world. The Theremin Trees quote is particularly relevant to what I mean by that. If anything I think that it shows a profound respect and caring for your fellows that you want them to see the world clearly.

[Ghost Hip]

This all being said, I have never considered pointing out reality to be 'being an asshole'. It's what I want others to do for me should they ever find me with distorted perceptions about the world. If anything I think that it shows a profound respect and caring for your fellows that you want them to see the world clearly.

The thing is I was not claiming my idea to be true. And at that, who said I was talking about reality? It was just a thought I had after watching a Bill Hicks documentary. That is why I responded the way I did. When I said "I have began to see my body and mind as a progression of a spirit." That could mean any number of things. I may have said "I believe" but that is completely separate from facts, truths, and evidence. There is not substantial evidence for beliefs, they are merely beliefs; hearsay. They do not effect you or the way the world works, they merely are within me. Now, with that said it is my responsibility to not force these views upon others. So when a thread like this comes up I make a modest post stating how I thought things may or may not work. Maybe someone says "hey that's cool, dude," or someone says "nah man, I can't vibe with that, too creepy." It is alright, It is only a belief. Not everyone should have to submit to my beliefs, bad things could happen if I felt the need to do so. Like, I could ban devnull for criticizing my idea so harshly. But that is not just.

I see my body and mind as the progression of a spirit, I am progressing myself and (if I'm doing it correctly) others through music, photography, writing, jobs, friendship, etc.

Is it so bad that I think this way? Why does one feel the need to force upon their ideas of existence instead of offering them for consideration?

[jfrey]

... (edited out for space)

If you want to discuss via pm hit me up - I don't want to have a big forum wide argument starting up here like it has in a few other threads. Saying to someone that you think they're wrong / or why they are wrong, whichever the case may be, shouldn't be seen as a personal attack. If anything the opposite. When a person shows me I'm wrong, even if a given thought is only entertained and not closed on, I am grateful to them. It allows me to be better than I was.

[object88]

I don't fear death -- I fear disability and impotence. I've seem enough people more or less trapped by their bodies to not want to ever go through that, not for my self or my loved once. Give us a quick death. (Being agnostic, I also am not terribly concerned with what may or may not come after; I just try to lead a human-positive existence and let the dice roll.)

[Achtane]

Have any known ILFers died?

[Big Mon]

The other was to give each member of the board an opportunity to share their views on the matter without ridicule or scrutiny (the main rule here on ILF being "don't be an asshole"). If people would stop using their differences as a means of choosing a side and attacking the opposite of that world view, then the world would be less of a downer.

I feel like I'm always starting posts with 'It isn't my intention to argue or offend, but...'

So anyway, I'll just post some relevant quotes instead of getting into this much myself.

NSFW: show

"I try to deny myself any illusions or delusions, and I think that this perhaps entitles me to try and deny the same to others, at least as long as they refuse to keep their fantasies to themselves."
- Christopher Hitchens

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
- Christopher Hitchens

"Belief is the death of intelligence."
- Robert Anton Wilson

"If there are two opposing ideas, it is not always true that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It is possible that one person is simply wrong."
- Richard Dawkins

"For my money, the best humanitarians don't coddle us. They challenge us — sometimes aggressively. To be our best selves. They confront us with our stupidities, our pretences, our self-delusions and deceptions. Not with the agenda of diminishing us, bringing us into line, herding us into some grubby little flock. But in fact the opposite — shaking us out of our complacency, our groupthink, our self-indulgence and pig-ignorance."
- Theremin Trees

"I respect you as a person too much to respect your ridiculous beliefs."
- Johann Hari

This all being said, I have never considered pointing out reality to be 'being an asshole'. It's what I want others to do for me should they ever find me with distorted perceptions about the world. The Theremin Trees quote is particularly relevant to what I mean by that. If anything I think that it shows a profound respect and caring for your fellows that you want them to see the world clearly.

It's also not everyone's wish "to be proven wrong." Rather, I asked a question, "do you fear death?", after which I went on to ask "why/why not". Not "why is your answer superior to the next forumite's?". I respect your right to believe/disbelieve as you choose, without any need to argue over specifics. Can the same courtesy not be extended? I'm not coming at you or anything like that. But some people are just more "live and let live" with regards to how they believe/disbelieve. Dev's attack was out of line, much as I like the guy. Your reality is just that: YOUR reality. As mine is mine, dev's his, PP's his. What IS reality, after all? Are there not facets of your reality that would differ from mine? Are there not facets of PP's that would differ from dev's? Are the things which make the real real shared by each member of the board? Like, it's quite real, and proveable that I have children. You, I don't think, do. (Going out on a limb here). And thus, your reality is as such-childless.Does that make either reality less or more real than the other? And who's to say who's wrong or right? What cannot be proven can sometimes also not be unproven, is it not so? Is space real? I'm sure we can agree that it is. Are there things in it that we don't know about? Sure. But how do we know? How could we truly put this to the test then? We don't know that it's real, as it cannot be proven or tested. We can only hypothesize. Saying someone is wrong without any irrefutable evidence to the contrary is kinda, wrong. Again, I'm not fighting with you, and this thread has gotten a wee bit OT. I just feel that claiming to have knowledge when said knowledge is no more than a solid hypothesis or theory is the reasoning of arrogance. "Evangelical atheism" isn't too far a cry from being "evangelical".

[jfrey]

I do not claim to have any knowledge which I don't. I only claim to not have knowledge which I don't. This is a logical position, and following this, that which is without evidence, or reasonable assumption, can be dismissed, and what remains observable, or reasonably likely must be - with retained skepticism - accepted.

Reality, is reality. What is, is. There is no such thing as a personal reality. There is perception, and our perceptions will differ greatly based on our lives, environments, etc. But perception is merely interpretation of reality, and not reality itself. Our inability to know exactly, in a perfectly measurable non-conceptual way, what reality is, does not make reality somehow non-existant. To say that one of us has children and the other does not, does not mean our reality is different. It means we both live in the reality in which one of us has children and the other does not.

From what I do observe in people, thinking otherwise is horrifyingly destructive. Worse, few ever seem to realize. If anything they believe it is in fact the opposite. And, I would wish no harm to befall anyone. Even, if it is harm they never notice.

[htsamurai]

[D.o.S.]

Reality, is reality. What is, is. There is no such thing as a personal reality. There is perception, and our perceptions will differ greatly based on our lives, environments, etc. But perception is merely interpretation of reality, and not reality itself. Our inability to know exactly, in a perfectly measurable non-conceptual way, what reality is, does not make reality somehow non-existant. To say that one of us has children and the other does not, does not mean our reality is different. It means we both live in the reality in which one of us has children and the other does not.

Wait, so do I take the red pill or the blue pill?

Perhaps the purple...


Honestly, the whole "ever-present totality and finality of death" kick serves as a consistent drive to me to create things of quality that will exist after I'm dead, and pushes me towards creating a positive environment for my friends, family, and the people around me. Not because of a reward once I die (though if that shit turns out to be real, that'll be one hell of a trip), but because it makes for a more fulfilling life--both personally and creatively. That Bukowski quote is fucking golden, and I think it should be reiterated for emphasis.

[jfrey]

That Bukowski quote is fucking golden, and I think it should be reiterated for emphasis.

I'm particularly fond of a very similar quote from Sam Harris.

"Consider it: every person you have ever met, every person will suffer the loss of his friends and family. All are going to lose everything they love in this world. Why would one want to be anything but kind to them in the meantime?"