Esoterics // Superstition

[ninnghizidda]

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[alexa.]

However, it has to test something that is falsifiable and has a measurable result. A subjective experience, by definition is not falsifiable or measurable.

Not with thinking that caused the state to begin with, no. But it is possible. A person has to be his own scientist, let's say. What Buddha did basically.

Careful there. That sounds like you're just making up your own meanings to suit your own needs. There's hardly anything scientific about Buddha. Did he, at some point, say, "I'm going to test this theory of enlightenment by meditating for a while?" Nope.

It's worth mentioning here, If I didn't already somewhere back in the thread, that it's being shown in laboratory studies that our brains make emotional decisions before we make "logical" ones. We basically try to rationalize our feelings about something, even if it leads us in illogical circles.

It's really subtle and it can't really be expressed properly, I could show you the way to the principle that applies here that makes my statement true (and in what sense it's true), you just have to be possible to shift domains. This domain doesn't have designations, just concepts. What ninnghizidda just said about the Tao. We can talk about it in roundabout ways, but we can never pin it down, you cannot slam a nail in the sky.

I would also like to add that I think it's pretty fucking awesome to be having this deep and serious of a discussion on a board of fellow gear heads. Maybe the world ain't so bad after all.

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!! LOVE ALL AROUND!!!!!

[Derelict78]

to all
With Magick and I guess any spiritual experience like Tao we could talk about it for days but every persons experience will be different and that is why its so difficult to measure. Also for someone that has no experience in say ritual magick I/we could describe it over and over but really you just need to go do the work and experience it for your self. Like riding a roller coster, I could describe it in great detail but you wouldn't really "get it" until you rode one for your self.

[alexa.]

:hug: to all
With Magick and I guess any spiritual experience like Tao we could talk about it for days but every persons experience will be different and that is why its so difficult to measure. Also for someone that has no experience in say ritual magick I/we could describe it over and over but really you just need to go do the work and experience it for your self. Like riding a roller coster, I could describe it in great detail but you wouldn't really "get it" until you rode one for your self.

But the further you go/remember/understand you see the pattern that is Tao. it cannot be named, it cannot be grasped, but it IS. Hidden in everything everywhere all the time, right now!

I have perfected the skill of purposeful confusion so I can make people think subconsciously, and then have a few breakthroughs for free.
Food for thought! Questions that are in fact answers! The paradox, the golden middle, the fractal, both sides of the coin in the same time, having no ground to step on, or sky to walk under!
The singularity. The unnamed, the everchanging All That Is.

I'm just reflecting to all of you what you already know, but are now ready to remember.

[Derelict78]

uh yeah none of this is new to me.
no breakthroughs for a while now, at least none that I can speak of.
saying that you have perfected anything is a pretty big claim.

[gunslinger_burrito]

oooh. The flame hath been re-kindled.

I have perfected the skill of purposeful confusion so I can make people think subconsciously, and then have a few breakthroughs for free.

Bear in mind that I don't mean this in a condescending way, or in an insulting way. This is the kind of thing I was just warning about. Don't delude yourself into thinking that talking nonsense is anything other than that. I am reminded of a buddy who lives in a nearby city who talks in convoluted pseudo-philosophical nonsense all the time. He's a really nice guy, and a crazy talented keyboard player, but he's deluded himself into thinking that the "universe speaks to him," and that "if he can just realize love then reality will open up for him," etc. BUT, while he is basically self-employed (kudos on that one, for sure) he is still poor as fuck, can barely take care of himself (I remember when he learned how to make grilled-cheese sandwiches ), and can't just figure it out that if he would WORK a little harder, he could really have something great. But he's lazy. This is a guy who didn't know that the moon "glows" because it reflects the sun's light until he was in his 20's. Seriously. Back on track, talking nonsense has a place, and that place is to loosen the mind up, essentially. But it's not a "one answer fits all" solution. Reality will go on without you.

My point here is that it's fine and all to talk of the Tao, universal consciousness, etc as long as you can back it up somehow (see: http://www.spaceandmotion.com/ it's a little off, but it's a damn good try). I studied the HELL out of eastern philosophy for most of my youth (even though I'm not "old"). I ditched it because it still, for the most part, tells us that we have to abandon reality, to restrain our desires, in order to be happy. I already covered this with that Jodorowsky quote, but I'll add to it: Happiness is an effect of a cause of circumstances that occur in reality. So how can one experience infinite, sublime joy by being "enlightened," if that means departing from the senses?

[ninnghizidda]

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[alexa.]

oooh. The flame hath been re-kindled.

I have perfected the skill of purposeful confusion so I can make people think subconsciously, and then have a few breakthroughs for free.

Bear in mind that I don't mean this in a condescending way, or in an insulting way. This is the kind of thing I was just warning about. Don't delude yourself into thinking that talking nonsense is anything other than that. I am reminded of a buddy who lives in a nearby city who talks in convoluted pseudo-philosophical nonsense all the time. He's a really nice guy, and a crazy talented keyboard player, but he's deluded himself into thinking that the "universe speaks to him," and that "if he can just realize love then reality will open up for him," etc. BUT, while he is basically self-employed (kudos on that one, for sure) he is still poor as fuck, can barely take care of himself (I remember when he learned how to make grilled-cheese sandwiches ), and can't just figure it out that if he would WORK a little harder, he could really have something great. But he's lazy. This is a guy who didn't know that the moon "glows" because it reflects the sun's light until he was in his 20's. Seriously. Back on track, talking nonsense has a place, and that place is to loosen the mind up, essentially. But it's not a "one answer fits all" solution. Reality will go on without you.

My point here is that it's fine and all to talk of the Tao, universal consciousness, etc as long as you can back it up somehow (see: http://www.spaceandmotion.com/ it's a little off, but it's a damn good try). I studied the HELL out of eastern philosophy for most of my youth (even though I'm not "old"). I ditched it because it still, for the most part, tells us that we have to abandon reality, to restrain our desires, in order to be happy. I already covered this with that Jodorowsky quote, but I'll add to it: Happiness is an effect of a cause of circumstances that occur in reality. So how can one experience infinite, sublime joy by being "enlightened," if that means departing from the senses?

Can you give me his contact or fb please? I'd love it.

Personally, I think it's pretty fucking terrifying, horrific, and anxiety inducing more times than not, but it's also one of the greatest awe-inspiring joys one can experience.

the paradox

[Derelict78]

a friend posted this on facebook from one of my favorite books
Robert A. Wilson was a wise man!

"Lola approached the podium with something that looked hideously like a medieval thumb-
screw.

"There is firstly conscious will," Crowley was saying, looking directly at Sir John. "We all
attempt to exercise this every day. 'I will give up smoking.' 'I will be true to my wife.' Ninety-nine
times out of a hundred such resolutions fail, because they are in conflict with the force that really
controls us, Unconscious Will, which can not be frustrated. Indeed, even the profane psychologists
have rediscovered what the mystics always knew: Unconscious Will, if prevented from acting,
returns in the night to haunt our dreams. And sometimes it returns in the daytime, too, in the form of
irrational behaviors which we cannot understand. Magick Will should not be confused with either of
these, because it includes both and is greater than both. To perform an act of Magick Will is to
achieve the Great Work, I might say. The holiest of all holy books says in this connection, 'Thou
hast no right but to do thy will.' Alas, if you think you are doing your true Will, without magickal
training, you are almost always deluding yourself. . . But I am engaging in the windy verbiage I
promised to avoid, and here is the implement of demonstration. Would anybody care to give us an
exhibit of what they can accomplish by conscious Will?"

"I think I shall give it a try," Sir John said, wondering at his own daring. "That's only fair
since I asked the question," he added, feeling inane.

"Well, then, good! Come up here, sir," Crowley said with a grin that was beginning to look a
bit sinister to Sir John. "We have here," he went on, holding the ugly thumb-screw so that everybody
could get a good view, "one of the implements once used by the Dominican Order to enforce the
religion which, as I said, has been foisted on Christ." He set the torture device on the podium. "They
used it as an instrument of torture, but we shall use it as a measure of Will." ----RAW, Masks of the Illuminati"

[gunslinger_burrito]

Everything in moderation, including moderation itself. I wouldn't judge your friend that way, personally; if he's good with his life and can take care of himself, who are you to say he ought to be doing things different? Something great to you might not be something great for him. Personally, I'd probably think the dude was a little eccentric, but whatever, you'll have that sometimes.

Also, that depends on what you define "enlightenment" as. Personally, I think it's pretty fucking terrifying, horrific, and anxiety inducing more times than not, but it's also one of the greatest awe-inspiring joys one can experience. I don't do it for those reasons, though. I have abandoned the pursuit of happiness and instead focus my attention on finding the truth, whatever the truth may be, at whatever cost it may take.

EDIT: I also meant to clarify the moderation thing. You have to find a balance between your everyday life and your spiritual life. You can't live with your head in the clouds and expect to get by in the objective world, just like you can't live your life in the objective world wholly and never fantasize about "what if's" "maybe's" and "I wonder's". Well, I suppose you could do them both, but you'd either end up really flaky, or really bland.

I'm sure I came off a little harsher than I meant. I still think well of him, if only for living such an offshoot path. But I have met a lot of people similar to that, and the bottom line is that they live in their heads more than in life. Or, as you said, with their heads "in the clouds." Refer to this: http://psych-your-mind.blogspot.com/201 ... nking.html and pay attention especially to number 2. There are a lot people out there who think especially highly of themselves without having actually attained most of the things they talk about. I'm not down-talking anyone, you can live however you wish, but I'm just trying to warn of the pitfalls of self-delusion.


@ Derelict: That's an interesting little read there. Not sure I get the end though. I haven't finished my morning coffee, though.

On the general note of esoterics and philosophy, this is a good, not terribly long read: http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/BOT.html

[ninnghizidda]

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[Bassus Sanguinis]

LaVey. Ummmm nah, haven't got much love for him or his works.

[alexa.]

LaVey. Ummmm nah, haven't got much love for him or his works.

I want to know what did you do two days ago. Cuz I think I ran into some hints in the collective consciousness and it was interesting. Lots of symbols. Loved it anyway. Just wondered, at the time I ran into it, if it was your doing

[DeadNotSleeping]

I believe in Harvey Dent

[gunslinger_burrito]

I tried to just let it ride, but I have to put some words in.....

The thing that irks me and kind of seriously bums me out sometimes, is the same idea that had the same effects on LaVey. In his time, there were tons of new-agers and "mystics" coming out all over the place, as well as the popularization of things like Wicca, "white magic," etc.... As someone who doesn't think a true form of altruism exists, I agree with LaVey that all magic is ultimately for selfish purposes, for self-gain. All these other groups, cults, religions, and whatever else they want to call themselves are too guilt-ridden to admit that, and so they call themselves "white" magicians, and claim to use "White magic." When it comes down to it, there is neither white nor black magic, just like there is neither good or evil in a cosmic sense. There is only what one likes and what one doesn't like, or what is oppressing the majority and what is not oppressing the majority. Beyond good and evil. The universe in inherently amoral.

That being said, the current cultural "phenomena" that irks and bums me out in a very similar fashion is how many metal bands use satanic art and symbolism and yet are either idiots and believe that satan is actually some kind of anthropomorphic deity, or else , when asked if they are "satanists," they probably respond with "what, NO! I just like the art, blah blah blah." All these folks taking the image and name of something just to look tough or scary or cool or whatever, but not actually giving a damn about the origin of what they're using.

Back to that idea regarding magic. Why go through the trouble to admit that magic is ultimately a psychological tool, and then say, "oh, wait, no, I only use it 'good' purposes" ? Shouldn't that kind of person have already come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as "Good" or "bad?"

I follow what LaVey laid out because I don't actually believe in good, evil, god, the devil, or any sort of karmic retribution from the universe. Satan has always been the accuser, the opposition, the guy who said, "hey wait! Why are we doing things this way? This way sucks!" I could refer to Paradise Lost, but since it's not actually a religious text, I can use the Bible, Genesis, specifically. How many people stop to think about how Satan was the one to give humanity the apple from the tree of knowledge? Satan was once called Lucifer, which I'm sure most of you on this tread should know meant "bringer of light, shining one, morning star." It's incredibly ironic to me how many "satanists" out there are obsessed with death and violence. LaVey even spoke about how most of all other religions are religions of DEATH (calling Christianity in particular, a "death cult"), because everyone runs around so preoccupied with how to live one way or the other so that when they die, something "nice" will happen to them. But in reality, death treats everyone the same.

It's worth repeating something he was kind of famous for saying, "EVIL is LIVE spelled backwards."