Occupy Wallstreet

[unownunown]

if you're part of a minority culture it's a very important part of who you are. it's how you grew up. it's how your parents grew up. it's how people react to you. it's your rituals, beliefs, tastes, etc. it many ways, it's a (sometimes depressing) form of determinism.

Ah but isn't that determinism brought on by how the minority culture is treated by and thought of by the majority culture? How is having to feel determined against something a good thing?

determinism is such a pejorative term. it's like, jimmy's dad is a lawyer and his mother is a housewife. he lives in a gated community and goes to a private school. he has a sister. she takes ballet lessons. when he grows up he'll go to college and become a lawyer or something similar. he'll marry a woman who will give him two kids and stay at home (in their expensive home in a gated community) to take care of them. he'll probably send his kids to private school, and put the girl in ballet and the boy in sports. all of his friends will probably do the same because it will be easiest for him to connect with their white and upperclass upbringings. to me, that story is just as depressing across race and class lines.

so yeah, that form of determinism doesn't always have to do with institutional racism. although your definition of race to exclude white people in that statement is kind of what i'm talking about in my previous post.

That's a fair point Epi,...and I agree with you that culture isn't bullshit,...but at some point you have to concede that our differences are used by the media and the powers that be to perpetuate irrational fear amongst the herd.

i didn't disagree with that.

[Mudfuzz]

although your definition of race to exclude white people in that statement is kind of what i'm talking about in my previous post.

Where? I wasn't. you are taking one way of looking at something and running with it.

[unownunown]

well, when you said determinism is caused by "how the minority culture is treated by and thought of by the majority culture" it implies that only the futures of minorities are determined.

not on the culture tangent, here's some interesting reading
http://the53.tumblr.com
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

[Astricii]

I live in a tiny apartment. My only ride is a ratty 8 year old motorcycle. I cook my own food to save money. All my income after paying my bills and debt goes into an investment account so that in ten years, I can be one of the 1%.
Until then… I am the 53%

Good luck with that, asshole. I got some sweet mortgage backed securities you can invest in. Don't worry. they're rated AAA... The private sector never lies after all.

[plhogan]

Interesting article at the Huffington Post today

I know the shitheads in this thread will decry anything from Huffington Post as "capuchino-drinking liberal elitist leftocrat nonsense" but for anybody who doesn't have their head buried in their ass (You know who you are, you can't pretend to ignore the smell) there's some pretty cool points made.

I don't understand how the same people who will defend the Tea-Party as "maligned by the media" can't understand that maybe, just maybe, their idea of what Occupy Wallstreet is has been tainted by the media too.

[Mudfuzz]

has been tainted by the media too.

The media never lies, never. It's all true. It's all factual. All of it.

[rfurtkamp]

I read DU, HP, and the NYT daily among other things; I like to know where people are on issues.

My opposition isn't because I don't know the movement.

It's because I do.

You can download and read their email archive that dates back months, which refutes almost all of the HuffPro points:

- The unions have been involved almost since day 1, if not from day 1.
- The diversity in the movement is orchestrated. You'll find complaints and 'we need minorities for this action' all over the archive.
- The movement is violent. Anyone who threatens revolution in the streets, wraps itself in the "V for Vendetta" flag, and orchestrates confrontations with the police designed to get sympathetic media coverage *is* playing with fire.
- They don't want to release what it is they want. The longer that demands aren't listed, the longer they can play the middle and move towards an apparently democratic change. That's why the initial General Assembly stuff wasn't planned until spring (now July, concluding as the election season heats up in the fall) - they do not want to offer actual solutions or requirements for almost a year.

I follow my local group religiously, they've had an interesting discussion on violence and revolution the last few days on Facebook, it's been funny - if they realized the consequences of threatening a hot war with genuine bullets.

[Mudfuzz]

I read DU, HP, and the NYT daily among other things; I like to know where people are on issues.

My opposition isn't because I don't know the movement.

It's because I do.

You can download and read their email archive that dates back months, which refutes almost all of the HuffPro points:

- The unions have been involved almost since day 1, if not from day 1.
- The diversity in the movement is orchestrated. You'll find complaints and 'we need minorities for this action' all over the archive.
- The movement is violent. Anyone who threatens revolution in the streets, wraps itself in the "V for Vendetta" flag, and orchestrates confrontations with the police designed to get sympathetic media coverage *is* playing with fire.
- They don't want to release what it is they want. The longer that demands aren't listed, the longer they can play the middle and move towards an apparently democratic change. That's why the initial General Assembly stuff wasn't planned until spring (now July, concluding as the election season heats up in the fall) - they do not want to offer actual solutions or requirements for almost a year.

I follow my local group religiously, they've had an interesting discussion on violence and revolution the last few days on Facebook, it's been funny - if they realized the consequences of threatening a hot war with genuine bullets.

Links and stuff? [not saying I doubt but links are always nice]

[plhogan]

Rfurtkamp, of course you would think those things. If Breitbart says it, it has to be true.

Tell me again how the NFA infringes on your second-amendment rights though, that was rich. You definitely put an interesting spin on things.

[rfurtkamp]

Mail archives linked at http://biggovernment.com/thomasryan/2011/10/14/the-email-archive-of-the-occupywallstreet-movement-anarchists-socialists-jihadists-unions-democrats/.

It's Breitbart, he'll be as loved here as HuffPro would be at my dinnertable, but no one is claiming that the things being said aren't being said and haven't been said.

Remember, this movement started as an aping of Tahir Square - whose purpose was to overthrow the government - to start a revolution.

From Facebook's "Occupy Pocatello" (irony, I know that "Occupy" is in the middle of nowhere in Idaho, until you consider that we are the #1 union stronghold in the state, and everyone involved in paying for and organizing the group is a known Democratic Party and union activist locally): "And I think that non-violence means can be used to change the nation... but that seldom works (as is seen all over the globe). If the people are not committed to dieing at the hands of their government without killing in return then non-violent means will not work. If you fear arrest and run at a rain cloud what will happen when riot police use extreme force to clear the streets?""

"If you really think that bitching is going to change things, you are kidding yourselves. a civil war WILL happen if things are to change, without a force to be reckoned with, what reason do they have to listen to us? The governmental corruption has gone on for years and years and years and no amount of sign holding is going to change that. What it will do however is make people realize that they aren't the only ones that feel this way and that will make the protesters and civilians ALOT more comfortable with the idea of fighting for their rights. "

From Occupy Idaho's site, http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=230247057032032&set=pu.227861087270629&type=1&theater - Patrick Henry, citing Ruby Ridge and Waco (which out here are literally fighting words, you have to remember that Weaver's wife and child were executed a few miles down the road here), etc.

Anyone wrapping themselves in a Guy Fawkes mask is also advocating blowing up the government, whether it's because they read the V for Vendetta comic (ironically one of my personal favorites, even if I don't agree with it politically) or saw the godawful movie, or are familiar with the background of Mr. Fawkes' antics.

The media as a whole isn't poking fun at this movement or attacking the hypocrisy; they're keeping low profile (except for Fox News, and well, did you expect them to do anything but use this to highlight the ideological differences) so that the movement can continue without being threatening to middle America.

[rfurtkamp]

Rfurtkamp, of course you would think those things. If Breitbart says it, it has to be true.

Nobody is disputing the authenticity of the documents.

They could come from Michael Moore or anyone else - facts here are facts.

Tell me again how the NFA infringes on your second-amendment rights though, that was rich. You definitely put an interesting spin on things.

US v. Miller doesn't hold up to strict scrutiny, the standard for incorporated rights, with minimum restrictions - nor does it stand when these items *are* in common use and have been for generations. That's the starting point.

But you're not asking genuine questions I suspect. This is 'take the eyes off the emails and the opposing view and attack the messenger.'

[plhogan]

Here's the difference: the Huffington Post is a respected aggregator with a stated and obvious liberal tilt. Breitbart is a lunatic who is pretty much only known for using lies and misrepresentation to further his causes (ACORN? Shirley Sherrod anyone?)

Oh and you were right to suspect, although it was more of a dig at your obviously fringe views (It's ok! Just accept it!) than sleight-of-hand.

If anything, trying to take a few stolen emails off of a very well known liars site and using them to try and create an imaginary conspiracy is the obfuscation here.

[rfurtkamp]

Here's the difference: the Huffington Post is a respected aggregator with a stated and obvious liberal tilt. Breitbart is a lunatic who is pretty much only known for using lies and misrepresentation to further his causes (ACORN? Shirley Sherrod anyone?)

And yet, for all his alleged evils, no one is claiming the mails are not correct.

That's the point.

Oh and you were right to suspect, although it was more of a dig at your obviously fringe views (It's ok! Just accept it!) than sleight-of-hand.

Never saidt hey were mainstream, but again, it's 'look at the kooky guy who I don't agree with, let's attack the messenger.'

If anything, trying to take a few stolen emails off of a very well known liars site and using them to try and create an imaginary conspiracy is the obfuscation here.

If over 7000 mails is a few, then yea, it's a few.

It offers a very clear view of the evolution of what occurred, without a media filter.

And what those mails show directly do refute the HuffPro claims you link.

But please, continue to attack the messenger (whether it's me or Breitbart or Fox News or whoever) - I present information and let people figure out where they stand on issues.

I don't need to attack you to do it.

[plhogan]

Oh god I hate when conservatives start playing the victim.

Isn't that supposed to be my job as the sissy liberal?

Just to be clear, nobody is bothering to refute the emails because they're meaningless. They say nothing new or surprising, and since there are no leaders or authoritative spokesmen for the movement they couldn't possibly be attributed to the movement as a whole. They play right into Breitbarts consistent modus operandi of throwing out-of-context snippets of nothing to the hungry conservative dogs and then demanding "refutation".

Just as you're doing right now.

[plhogan]

On a lighter note, "HuffPro" sounds like an awesome new invention that lets us abuse inhalants with an efficiency previously unknown to modern man.

"Huff 'N Go with HuffPro!"