Occupy Wallstreet

[MEC]

Except the middle class itself pays no effective tax. That's who can afford it.

... what fucking planet do you live on?

One in which those households, 50% of American households to be accurate, earning up to 33k a year in 2008, paid no income taxes.

^ Just out of curiosity, where did you get that statistic?

[jfrey]

I have seen almost that same statistic - the difference being 40% instead of 50%.

[rfurtkamp]

Heritage.org, using CBO statistics.

http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook ... me-earners

In before 'oh, god it's conservatives'.

And median household income in 2007, last year I have data quickly googleable, is 31k in the US.

Considering that married couples can file independently, creating a second household where there is in effect only one, that's up to 60k....

[MEC]

Deleted Post.

My balls.

[rfurtkamp]

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2009.pdf

Income tax vs total tax, we can go on for a while on this one. There's a lot of 'let's shift the focus from what that guy said to what I have in front of me here' going on, meaning that this dialogue in effect isn't one.

In before 'oh, god it's conservatives'.

Just because you say "In before 'oh, god it's conservatives" doesn't make your source any more valid.
[/quote]

And playing the 'oh, god it IS conservatives' doesn't change the validity either. Circles ensue.

Just because 31k is the "median income" doesn't mean that a family who makes 31k is middle class.

Median family income is the only reliable indicator, it literally is the average income, hence, middle. It can extend well above that if we start talking about 'are we talking about middle class as defined by income verus social strata' and the like as well. I pick median income becuase it's an objective standard.

When you file independently you don't create two households you create one household and one person filing as an individual.

Depends on how the stats are compiled and whether it's done off of income tax vs census 'household' or some other defining factor. This is where the fine print comes in and the difference between plans from various politicians generate miraculous surpluses or inconceivable deficits.

Also, if you want talk tax loopholes let's talk about the individuals/companies who pay lawyers hundreds of thousands of dollars to find said loopholes and exploit the tax code for millions of dollars more. That's far more significant than "Hey, if we file separately we can save $70".

Another approach entirely, ignoring the 'median income doesn't pay income tax' point, but I'll play with the shifting sands.

I'm all for reforming the tax code. It's a long-needed change. Slamming the rich as the sole source of income, especially new income, however, won't fix things.

None of this changes the fact that there's no concrete suggestions for discrete policy choices coming out of the OWS movement.

It's pure populist bunk at this point, all noise and thunder with no substance.

[theavondon]

Deleted Post.

My balls.

[MEC]

Sorry for deleting my post. I didn't know it was being replied to or I wouldn't have done it.
Also, your reply was 20 minutes after the delete so I hope you understand.
The reason I deleted my post was that I realized debating political issues on a Fuzz forum with a dude from Idaho, probably wouldn't change anything including either of our minds.

[Astricii]

You frame it as if You can only bitch about things being fucked up if you live in a damp cardboard box next to a sewer drain. Do you have to wait until half your body is covered in malignant tumors before going to the Dr.?

I frame it as a relative notion and because I'm aware of what Occupy Wall Street was promoting the event as on academic lists etc. before it happened. I've known about these for over a month before they started, because one of their members was spamming one of the old lady's lists with invitations to come out.

It was done as an attempt to start a literal revolution, in the vein of the Arab Spring. A literal revolution.

Not a protest.

A literal revolution.

That's why I'm coming down like a ton of bricks on the stupidity.

This isn't a harmless attempt to protest how things are or to enact change; it was advertised as the start of the overthrow of the system.

The people involved are patently irresponsible; they've reached for the cartridge box before exhausting the ballot box or the soapbox.

The kids aren't organized well enough and that's a shame because it is going to take bloodshed for this problem to be taken seriously.

Doesn't excuse baiting bloodshed (which is what disobeying police orders for where to go etc after they've let you peaceably assemble is) and exploiting the tear gas and 'innocent kid' silliness.

that's no reason to say they're worthless cry baby middle class kids and we should all keep our heads down until we're covered in shit. THEN we can go protest with some balls. *not exactly what you're saying, I know but how it comes off via interwebs no contextual inflection speak*

Thing is this approach is the approach of worthless crybaby middle class kids.

If they want a revolution, start one in their local sphere. Work for themselves, doing what they want, with rules they establish, and go from there. Prove their ideas are a success on a micro level before expecting anyone to accept the macro solution.

They're not working *with* the system to make change. I bet that 99% of the attendees have never voted in a local-only election, attended a city coucil meeting or their local water/sewer board, or the like - let alone actually going to an event to meet their state and federal Senators and Reps.

You don't march in the street until you've exhausted the other options. It takes the punch out of the event when it does happen and that's your last recourse before violence is the only option.

I'll listen to good ideas from anywhere, providing they can at least provide some logical reason for doing it.

As it is, they're using up scarce resources (since all things are finite, from the attention of the public to the money being spent on police overtime that could have been spent in NYC to feed the poor, educate the underprivileged, et cetera) to put on a show.

I'm offended by that, and I'm offended when conservatives play the same game.

Fair enough, I see your point in the organization.

It is frustrating that I'm one of a few folks in my direct circle of influence that does participate on the local level. Fuck it maybe we do have to turn into Venezuela to get people to pay attention and actually work to correct the disparity.

[Bellyheart]

Yes everyones mind is made. I'm gonna continue posting updates as I can. The rest of you are free to speak as you wish. No one needs to change anyones mind. Do you and progress in another way.

[The Mad Owl]

"I'm all for reforming the tax code. It's a long-needed change. Slamming the rich as the sole source of income, especially new income, however, won't fix things."

totally agree here.

[warwick.hoy]

Danny,....reforming ourselves is the only way we are going to overcome these societal problems. While I applaud the Occupation movement for taking a stance and I agree that there is too much corporate control of our political system,...I fear that there is little willingness of personal sacrifice from the majority of Americans (how many of those demonstrators would be willing to give up their phones,...their laptops,...?). We are a society of consumers and if we expect change we need to change ourselves. We need to stop consuming and become more self reliant.

Companies like Monsanto exist to supply a demand,...and if we want them to change we need to stop that demand. I agree that I'd rather see local farms prosper. In order for that to happen I and everyone in my community need to take a step back,....and decide if their priority is a new consumer electronical gadget, or paying the interest on their subprime mortgage and making do with shitty food,...or pay a little more to support a local farm for ethically grown food. Unfortunately I think the majority of Sheeple Americans would prefer the iPod and McDonalds as opposed to delicious, wholesome (not to mention way longer shelf life) high quality, and responsibly and sustainably grown food.

This is the best example I can come up with,...but this sort of logical and common sense priority designation can apply to a lot of things.

Call me old fashioned,...call me a luddite, but there are too many conveniences in this world and we need to be prepared to give up some of those conveniences.

[warwick.hoy]

Don't get me wrong I feel like corporate and economic corruption does indeed exist,....I think that the few people that orchestrated the subprime mortgage scam should be hung from the highest branch (if we could figure out who they were beyond the usual suspects).

I just don't think that we are going to be able to "get em" by becoming embattled with Wall Street and DC. There is too much money to be made,...and the bribery and back scratching [EDIT:] I mean dick sucking; goes too deep to expect any sort of meaningful reform. I thought when I voted for Obama that he would effect some sort of change,...in fact that seemed to be the crux of his campaign. What a pool of lies that turned out to be. Maybe I expected too much out of one man,...but hope turned into realization that politicians are all pretty much all interested in one thing,...job security.

We have to subvert these financial institution,...corrupt corporations and useless politicians by changing ourselves, our priorities and our desires.

I have often wondered what would happen if every single voter in America decided not to vote. Just stayed home or went to work or went about their day. It's not like our votes count for anything anyway.

[warwick.hoy]

http://moveyourmoneyproject.org/take-action

[alexa.]

Danny,....reforming ourselves is the only way we are going to overcome these societal problems. While I applaud the Occupation movement for taking a stance and I agree that there is too much corporate control of our political system,...I fear that there is little willingness of personal sacrifice from the majority of Americans (how many of those demonstrators would be willing to give up their phones,...their laptops,...?). We are a society of consumers and if we expect change we need to change ourselves. We need to stop consuming and become more self reliant.

Companies like Monsanto exist to supply a demand,...and if we want them to change we need to stop that demand. I agree that I'd rather see local farms prosper. In order for that to happen I and everyone in my community need to take a step back,....and decide if their priority is a new consumer electronical gadget, or paying the interest on their subprime mortgage and making do with shitty food,...or pay a little more to support a local farm for ethically grown food. Unfortunately I think the majority of Sheeple Americans would prefer the iPod and McDonalds as opposed to delicious, wholesome (not to mention way longer shelf life) high quality, and responsibly and sustainably grown food.

This is the best example I can come up with,...but this sort of logical and common sense priority designation can apply to a lot of things.

Call me old fashioned,...call me a luddite, but there are too many conveniences in this world and we need to be prepared to give up some of those conveniences.

!!!!!

[Astricii]

I know it's not the highest rated source of information but I found this article a while back.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405

There's a few snippets missing unless you're a subscriber but most of the good stuff is in there.


TL:DR... Goldman Sachs has owned your government for 40 years. get used to it. Oh and expect "green" companies to start going bust... oh wait one just did.