Gibson raided? Wtf?

[Gearmond]

People always forget that the government does everything behind the barrel of a gun. Just because they didn't run in guns blazing does not mean they weren't there.

having a gun and using it are two completely different things.

i'm pretty liberal but most gun owners are kinda in the same mentality as martial artists

Speaking as a peaceful, liberal person with a number of gentle, liberal martial artist friends, I'm curious as to what that mindset is. To say nothing of my gun-owning friends (most of whom who live in downeast Maine and do, in fact, hunt for food).

that its mostly something done for practice/self/defence/food etc. i think its a sort of cultural indoctrination that weapons are bad or w/e but in some cases, thats a one dimensional observation, and yeah the NRA are way too fucking vocal for their own good, and gun rights should be as important as the right to stay up as late as you want, but most people there take it seriously or w/e.

i guess what i mean is that if someone walks around with a concealed weapon, chances are they got it illegally n stuff.

[jrmy]

People always forget that the government does everything behind the barrel of a gun. Just because they didn't run in guns blazing does not mean they weren't there.

having a gun and using it are two completely different things.

i'm pretty liberal but most gun owners are kinda in the same mentality as martial artists

Speaking as a peaceful, liberal person with a number of gentle, liberal martial artist friends, I'm curious as to what that mindset is. To say nothing of my gun-owning friends (most of whom who live in downeast Maine and do, in fact, hunt for food).

that its mostly something done for practice/self/defence/food etc. i think its a sort of cultural indoctrination that weapons are bad or w/e but in some cases, thats a one dimensional observation, and yeah the NRA are way too fucking vocal for their own good, and gun rights should be as important as the right to stay up as late as you want, but most people there take it seriously or w/e.

i guess what i mean is that if someone walks around with a concealed weapon, chances are they got it illegally n stuff.

Fair enough. I guess I misheard your "tone" there - we're pretty much in agreement there.

[Schlatte]

moar info?
klick:
http://blogs.ajc.com/bob-barr-blog/2011/08/31/gibson-guitar-to-uncle-sam-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cfrom-my-cold-dead-hands%E2%80%9D/

[McSpunckle]

moar info?
klick:
http://blogs.ajc.com/bob-barr-blog/2011/08/31/gibson-guitar-to-uncle-sam-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cfrom-my-cold-dead-hands%E2%80%9D/

That's just another right-wing take on the story. Sadly, there's not really any new info in there.

Remember, other than the wood, they didn't take all the guitars. Only about a dozen of them. It's not like they're stopping Gibson from making guitars.

These people doing the blogs have about as much info as we do. And we don't have much.

[dubkitty]

the DoJ actually did order Gibson not to ship any product from the Nashville plant, saying that if they shipped even one guitar it would be considered obstruction of justice and a potential criminal violation. Gibson told them to fuck off.

[McSpunckle]

the DoJ actually did order Gibson not to ship any product from the Nashville plant, saying that if they shipped even one guitar it would be considered obstruction of justice and a potential criminal violation. Gibson told them to fuck off.

That's what Gibson's CEO said. But he also said they refused to tell him why they were taking stuff, then said he was told if the wood had been finished by Indians it would be legal... sooooooooo, we'll just have to see.

Moreover, if they do ship guitars made of illegal wood after knowing it's illegal, and the guitars get taken from their owners, that's really Gibson's fault. But so far nobody's guitars have been taken, and that probably won't ever happen.

[Mudfuzz]

if the wood had been finished by Indians it would be legal...

more info?

[dubkitty]

unless the government changes its mind and chooses to use the power it has under the Lacey Act and said in the Federal Register that it doesn't "intend" to use "at this time" as of 2/09.

[Schlatte]

moar info?
klick:
http://blogs.ajc.com/bob-barr-blog/2011/08/31/gibson-guitar-to-uncle-sam-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cfrom-my-cold-dead-hands%E2%80%9D/

That's just another right-wing take on the story. Sadly, there's not really any new info in there.

oh... ok.

but huh? gibson surely has contracts with their suppliers... and if the contracts violate law it's not their fault because there are always two sides who have to sign it... and if the company or country signs the contract, they accept the terms and stuff... soo... why does the government fuck with gibson? i dont get the whole point of this....

[Mudfuzz]

Moreover, if they do ship guitars made of illegal wood after knowing it's illegal, and the guitars get taken from their owners, that's really Gibson's fault. But so far nobody's guitars have been taken, and that probably won't ever happen.

Thing is about this whole thing.. Don't think for a minute Gibson [i.e.some one in the company] doesn't know what they are buying. Whole wood import companies have come into being because of gibson. They know where they are getting shit. They know if it is or not legal. They have been around too long to not not know. And they are too big not to have some one[s] keeps taps on where everything is coming from. So if they use illegal wood then either they knew and didn't care or someone at Gibson fucked up.

[dubkitty]

if the wood had been finished by Indians it would be legal...

more info?

from the New York Times (please note that i'm trying to find mainstream sources as much as possible):

The investigation that led to the searches last week began when a customs official intercepted an air shipment of 1,250 ebony fingerboards in Dallas on June 22, according to an affidavit filed in support of the search warrant. The shipment was mislabeled as “finished parts of musical instruments,” which are legal to export, the affidavit said.

The paperwork with the shipment did not say the wood was going to Gibson Guitar Corporation in Nashville. Agents from the Fish and Wildlife Service interviewed officials at a Canadian import company listed on a manifest and a storage company in Nashville where the wood was to be warehoused. They determined that the Gibson factories were the final destination.

The affidavit maintains that unfinished fingerboard blanks that are more than a centimeter thick cannot be exported under Indian law; only finished pieces of veneer, about half as thick can be exported. The intent of the law is to protect woodworking jobs in India.

But Mr. Juszkiewicz disputes this interpretation of the Indian statutes and the international tariff code. Gibson has been importing fingerboards from India for more than 17 years, he said, without any objections from the Indian government. He added that as recently as July the company’s agents in India received a ruling from Indian trade officials stating that the fingerboards could be exported.

the figures 6mm and 10mm have been used above; i've noted that that's within the bounds of error of a lumber-yard worker, and will note here that it's especially so if that worker is working in a lumber yard out in the sticks somewhere with old, beat-up machinery as one might expect in a developing nation.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... al-agents/

[dubkitty]

Thing is about this whole thing.. Don't think for a minute Gibson [i.e.some one in the company] doesn't know what they are buying. Whole wood import companies have come into being because of gibson. They know where they are getting shit. They know if it is or not legal. They have been around too long to not not know. And they are too big not to have some one[s] keeps taps on where everything is coming from. So if they use illegal wood then either they knew and didn't care or someone at Gibson fucked up.

see, that doesn't follow logically. if you have a company that consumes tens or hundreds of thousands of fretboards a year, what makes the logical conclusion deliberate fraud rather than unintentional error? after all, if they were going to try to evade customs regs with ebony fingerboards, why go for only 1250 of them in a period of two years of DoJ surveillance? why not go for a boatload? it doesn't make sense on economy-of-scale terms.

[Mudfuzz]

if the wood had been finished by Indians it would be legal...

more info?

from the New York Times (please note that i'm trying to find mainstream sources as much as possible):

The investigation that led to the searches last week began when a customs official intercepted an air shipment of 1,250 ebony fingerboards in Dallas on June 22, according to an affidavit filed in support of the search warrant. The shipment was mislabeled as “finished parts of musical instruments,” which are legal to export, the affidavit said.

The paperwork with the shipment did not say the wood was going to Gibson Guitar Corporation in Nashville. Agents from the Fish and Wildlife Service interviewed officials at a Canadian import company listed on a manifest and a storage company in Nashville where the wood was to be warehoused. They determined that the Gibson factories were the final destination.

The affidavit maintains that unfinished fingerboard blanks that are more than a centimeter thick cannot be exported under Indian law; only finished pieces of veneer, about half as thick can be exported. The intent of the law is to protect woodworking jobs in India.

But Mr. Juszkiewicz disputes this interpretation of the Indian statutes and the international tariff code. Gibson has been importing fingerboards from India for more than 17 years, he said, without any objections from the Indian government. He added that as recently as July the company’s agents in India received a ruling from Indian trade officials stating that the fingerboards could be exported.

the figures 6mm and 10mm have been used above; i've noted that that's within the bounds of error of a lumber-yard worker, and will note here that it's especially so if that worker is working in a lumber yard out in the sticks somewhere with old, beat-up machinery as one might expect in a developing nation.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... al-agents/

Alright.. miss labled

Ok things about buying wood:
#1 if you have the facilities you always want to get unfinished cuts and do you own final milling, because it is cheaper AND you have control of the final product.
#2 What you get in this "developed" have the time looks like it was done in a third world country. I get shit in from Weyerhaeuser all the time and it is NEVER the same size, I've gotten stuff a 1/4"+ under I won't even talk about the 80 something year old man in the woods that for some reason I will never understand my company "has" to use for big stuff.....

[McSpunckle]

but huh? gibson surely has contracts with their suppliers... and if the contracts violate law it's not their fault because there are always two sides who have to sign it... and if the company or country signs the contract, they accept the terms and stuff... soo... why does the government fuck with gibson? i dont get the whole point of this....

I don't disagree that it could be the fault of supplier, but that ship has kinda sailed at this point, hasn't it?

Incidentally, the thickness of wood apparently allowed to be imported from India (exported from, really) is 6mm, which is perfect fretboard thickness.

the figures 6mm and 10mm have been used above; i've noted that that's within the bounds of error of a lumber-yard worker, and will note here that it's especially so if that worker is working in a lumberyard out in the sticks somewhere with old, beat-up machinery as one might expect in a developing nation.

4mm is a huge difference, as I've said before. Plus, watch the press conference. This wasn't raw lumber. They were fretboard blanks.

see, that doesn't follow logically. if you have a company that consumes tens or hundreds of thousands of fretboards a year, what makes the logical conclusion deliberate fraud rather than unintentional error? after all, if they were going to try to evade customs regs with ebony fingerboards, why go for only 1250 of them in a period of two years of DoJ surveillance? why not go for a boatload? it doesn't make sense on economy-of-scale terms.

Does it even matter if they did it on purpose? Illegal imports are illegal imports. If someone mails me something that wasn't legal for import, I wouldn't be able to keep it if it was found. That's how it works.

And, yes, the biggest companies are always the ones that play it safe with the law. Always. That's never not the case. Ever.

[Mudfuzz]

Thing is about this whole thing.. Don't think for a minute Gibson [i.e.some one in the company] doesn't know what they are buying. Whole wood import companies have come into being because of gibson. They know where they are getting shit. They know if it is or not legal. They have been around too long to not not know. And they are too big not to have some one[s] keeps taps on where everything is coming from. So if they use illegal wood then either they knew and didn't care or someone at Gibson fucked up.

see, that doesn't follow logically. if you have a company that consumes tens or hundreds of thousands of fretboards a year, what makes the logical conclusion deliberate fraud rather than unintentional error? after all, if they were going to try to evade customs regs with ebony fingerboards, why go for only 1250 of them in a period of two years of DoJ surveillance? why not go for a boatload? it doesn't make sense on economy-of-scale terms.

As I said it could be either... But Gibson's is about buying wood and making crap out of it, that is actually what they do. Even if it was labeled and shipped wrong, when it got to the plant it would have been checked and measured. If it was shipped as finished and they got raw that is something someone would have noticed. This IS ebony we are talking about [Go and price ebony..] it DAMN well would have been gone over, because shippers and supply companies FUCK UP ALL THE TIME! You always have to check and count what you got so you KNOW what you just got. Again Gibson has been importing TONS of wood for a very long time.