Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

[D.o.S.]

Except the cycle of abuse mostly refers sufferers of childhood trauma reenacting what happened to them and trying to regain the power they were robbed of. Not adult women who accuse the men who don't return their love of rape. And then going on to bang teenagers.

She accused Harvey Weinstein of rape because he didn't return her love? I hadn't heard that.

Also I spent a long time on my earlier post plz respond ty.

[frodog]

It's the kind of thing that's tempting to voice an opinion on, but then you remember it's the internet and you don't know the people or the situation in question and you don't.

Yeah, my new approach is to embrace the fact everyone is already mad, already hates what I have to say so it's best to ramblingly encourage everyone step up their game by attempting to poke holes in assertions, in order to discard bad ideas in favor of better ones but who am I kidding nobody wants to learn from the mistakes of history so maybe I'll bury a pearl here and there to see whose subconscious discovers what I'm putting down to build up

Eh, if you say so. I think we've had pretty good discussions in the past.

Please have good discussions also in the future. I just don't know what to say to this. I'd be inclined to believe the woman, knowing some horny, drunk guys (none that ever did this, I hope) I hate to say it but probably. I've also met some horrible, manipulative women, but again I hope none of them ever falsely accused someone or didn't report something that happened to them. Unfortunately being assaulted puts it on you to report and prove it unless someone else does. If you don't, then you have to either keep it hidden or exact your revenge in some other direct or indirect way. That's where the internet comes in, and that's when it gets real messy unless the dialogue around the case happens to be exceptionally civil. Which it rarely is. But since none of us are directly involved, have at it I guess.

[Benn Roe]

So, this is the kind of logic that leads to zero tolerance policies that allows cops/attorneys/judges to basically just chuck anyone they want in prison for decades with no real recourse (hey, anyone remember the war on drugs?).
I get what you're saying, but you're still, effectively, advocating for false imprisonment because, "well, there's more of them that aren't even being arrested/imprisoned, so fuck 'em".

I'm sorry. Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I mentioned this, but should have elaborated. I'm not advocating that courts change anything about the basic principles of due process, presumption of innocence, etc. I'm saying that people should believe women. The justice system exists to dispassionately sift through the wreckage and determine guilt where it can. When working correctly, nobody should be wrongly convicted, even if guilty parties end up going free. Outside of the justice system, however, in part because sexual assaults are frequently so difficult to prove, it's important to show support for accusers. Let the courts worry about evidence and believe women.

[lost in music]

Not to detract from the serious discussion at hand, but when did it become Benn Roe instead of bennroe.

...I'm turning into Sparrow here.

Eh, a few weeks ago. When I signed up, I foolishly forgot to check to see if spaces were okay, and eventually got around to requesting the change. People always refer to me as "bennroe" when it's all one word, which just feels silly when it's not really intended as an anonymous handle. This way I hope it's a little clearer that it's my actual name.

Benns 'n Roeses

(edit: btw, you're doing the Lord's work itt)

[PuddysJacket]

Truth. Mind you, the Lord's work also includes smiting cities where homosexuality is accepted.

[Jwar]

unfortunately a few men ending up falsely accused is the price we have to pay to make sure more men who are rapists end up facing justice.

That is morally abhorrent.

Why is it abhorrent?
Dudes have been largely getting away with all sorts of violence towards women since time began.
That is abhorrent.
Current statistics about sexual violence, and eventual legal consequences for perpetrators of sexual violence, show that we as a society have a view about sexual violence that is abhorrent.
If a few innocent men get caught up in the attempt to redress this, in what way is that abhorrent?
Justice is an imperfect instrument.
We as a society try and improve this, so that innocent people stay out of jail, and that folks who get up to no good go to jail. Some of the laws are relatively good at this, and some aren't.
In the case of sexual violence are laws are so abysmally bad at prosecuting criminals almost anything we can do to right that is going, on the whole, to be a good thing.

Pretty sure believing women/the victim of sexual violence, is a fairly painless place to start.

Ehh. It is morally wrong to send a man to jail if he’s innocent. I think that’s what he was talking about.

[D.o.S.]

I mean there are probably better threads to bolster your post count for ILFSS.

[UglyCasanova]

unfortunately a few men ending up falsely accused is the price we have to pay to make sure more men who are rapists end up facing justice.

That is morally abhorrent.

Why is it abhorrent?
Dudes have been largely getting away with all sorts of violence towards women since time began.
That is abhorrent.
Current statistics about sexual violence, and eventual legal consequences for perpetrators of sexual violence, show that we as a society have a view about sexual violence that is abhorrent.
If a few innocent men get caught up in the attempt to redress this, in what way is that abhorrent?
Justice is an imperfect instrument.
We as a society try and improve this, so that innocent people stay out of jail, and that folks who get up to no good go to jail. Some of the laws are relatively good at this, and some aren't.
In the case of sexual violence are laws are so abysmally bad at prosecuting criminals almost anything we can do to right that is going, on the whole, to be a good thing.

Pretty sure believing women/the victim of sexual violence, is a fairly painless place to start.

Ehh. It is morally wrong to send a man to jail if he’s innocent. I think that’s what he was talking about.

Yes. There's a big, big difference between not being convicted due to lack of evidence VS being wrongfully convicted without any evidence, even though I agree with you that rape is a big, big problem because evidence is not necessarily always easy to come by in such a crime. I just don't think this is the sort of problem where you can morally justify breaking a few eggs to make an omelet. At least I don't want to live under a state that justifies imprisonment in that manner.

[dubkitty]

of course the imprisonment of the innocent is unacceptable. as was noted above and has been repeatedly throughout the Kavanaugh process, the presumption of innocence and due process only apply in criminal proceedings. if you sue for libel in the US you have to show actual malice i.e. deliberate deception. i don't find it a bit unreasonable to form an opinion based on best available information.

also, it's important to note that even when there IS material evidence it gets ignored. did you know that in Maricopa County, Arizona, where Senate GOP Ford prosecutor Rachel Mitchell worked hand-in-hand with Joe Arpiao's regime, there is a backlog of at least 3000 rape kits that have never been processed. apparently it was more important to detain people for living while Mexican. THREE. THOUSAND. RAPE. KITS. in one middling-large US city. i want to throw up.

[PuddysJacket]

I mean there are probably better threads to bolster your post count for ILFSS.

[PuddysJacket]

also, it's important to note that even when there IS material evidence it gets ignored. did you know that in Maricopa County, Arizona, where Senate GOP Ford prosecutor Rachel Mitchell worked hand-in-hand with Joe Arpiao's regime, there is a backlog of at least 3000 rape kits that have never been processed. apparently it was more important to detain people for living while Mexican. THREE. THOUSAND. RAPE. KITS. in one middling-large US city. i want to throw up.

That is absolutely sickening & unacceptable.

[Benn Roe]

I mean there are probably better threads to bolster your post count for ILFSS.

I literally spent all of September commenting everywhere I could contribute anything even remotely interesting, trying to get the last 130 or so posts I needed to qualify. Given my rate of progress so far, I doubt even this thread could get me there this close to the deadline. Posting's hard.

[rustywire]

When you're that man falsely accused, or it's your father, your son, your brother etc...what then?

OK. Assuming false accusations make up such a small part of overall accusations, the default response for a social justice minded activist would be to defend the human rights of (an extreme) minority vulnerable in extreme circumstances when the power structure is so overwhelmingly titled against them, yeah? Individuals are not math, not statistics to be judged by the average. That sort of dystopian thinking is what enables and emboldens the Pol Pots to commit crimes against humanity while making plans for you (and me).

I'm really reticent to respond to you, because you've proven over my few years here that you don't listen to anybody, in favour of regurgitating victim-complex-fueled political generalizations about anyone who demonstrates the slightest amount of empathy for other humans. My normal policy is not to grant you the dignity of an audience, but this is such an absurd statement you've succeeded in eliciting a response. Clever troll.

Men (as a group) are not, and never have been, the victims of any power structure disparity. That's a breathtakingly stupid comment. I've been trying to remain civil with Puddy, because I once had an acquaintance who was accused of rape and I made similarly indignant statements in defense of him on an online forum, so I know where he's coming from. It took that incident and seeing what my (relatively mild, by comparison) defense of this guy did to his accuser for me to wake up and realize I was on the wrong side of the debate, and I'm trying to help educate him before he digs himself into a hole he's going to regret.

Your comment, on the other hand, is disingenuous bullshit of a different calibre. I've never been accused of sexual assault, and I hope I never am, but I have been falsely accused in a public forum of other injustices. It sucks. But I didn't contradict my accuser's account, and tried instead to be a good example with my actions, because I recognized that fighting back would have done more harm than good to people as a whole. People will abuse and people will victimize. You can't stop all injustice, but not believing sexual assault accusers does a fuck of a lot more harm than believing them does, even if it means occasionally believing someone who's lying.

Reread your post again and ask yourself "is this really how someone who is empathetic tries to connect with someone who is different?"
"my normal policy is not to dignify you" Alright then.

Think about that answer for a while, then get back to me. Humor us all.
Regardless of whether or not you come to the same conclusion(s) I will respond with my customary autist sincerity and just a reminder I have feelings too so don't be a bully

[PeteeBee]

Crowd: *chanting* Benn roe! Benn roe! Benn roe!

This thread has some weird moves. Hard to tell what’s trolling, or shit posting, or genuine sentiment. Also, seems like a fair amount of intentional misunderstanding, which is always a bad look.

[aens_wife]

Some of you guys are fucking unbelievable. Jesus fucking christ.

Since a few of you are butthurt about women getting angry and loud about rape and sexual assault, with very few facts or statistics to guide your dumb fucking arguments, I'll help you out.

General stats on rape http://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

Here's a quote that might be pertinent:

"Rape is the most under-reported crime; 63% of sexual assaults are not reported to police (m)
The prevalence of false reporting is low between 2% and 10%. For example, a study of eight U.S. communities, which included 2,059 cases of sexual assault, found a 7.1% rate of false reports (i). A study of 136 sexual assault cases in Boston found a 5.9% rate of false reports (h). Researchers studied 812 reports of sexual assault from 2000-2003 and found a 2.1% rate of false reports (g)."

That isn't a huge statistical group, but it is usable data.

This site is also good, if you don't understand the scope of the issue: http://www.rainn.org/statistics
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sex ... 77f788d24f


More personally, I know a lot of women, myself included, who have been assaulted or raped. My mom was raped at 19 by someone she was casually dating. The number of women YOU KNOW PERSONALLY who have been raped/assaulted is much, much larger THAN THE MEN YOU KNOW WHO HAVE BEEN FALSLY ACCUSED.

I think our justice system is abhorrent on many levels, and it is really awful and tragic that anyone is falsely accused. Women who advocate for abuse and rape victims don't want that shit. All it does is discredit victims, so whiny bitch men (like some of you) can come onto the great wide internet and claim that all men are innocent because a few folks falsely accuse.

Here's the thing, though. We can believe victims/survivors at the start. Then you start investigating the claim honestly (like the cops should do, but largely don't because there are a lot of abusers on the force). If the story the survivor tells lines up at every step, then yes, castrate the mother fucker. If there are problems with the stories, shit doesn't line up, then we don't castrate the motherfucker. Get it?

As far as women like Asia Argento, she was likely abused/victimized and also was an abuser. The cycle of abuse is very common and isn't only for folks who were abused in childhood. Again, not that fucking hard to understand. Some women are shitty. It happens.

Lastly, I vote for the asshole who is defending rapists/abusers to shut up or get the fuck off this forum. His arguments are all bad faith and full of bullshit, but it isn't my job to teach men not to be awful human beings. His parents were supposed to do that and they failed.

PS - thanks to those of you trying to educate in this thread.
PPS - I am only partially joking about castration.