Dealing with bass/low end in a guitar lead 2 piece

[KingNed]

So I've been playing in a heavy 2-piece for a while. Right now I run my guitar through an ABY: one side goes into my guitar rig (which is ever changing), and the other goes into a Pitchfork for an octave down, a big muff, and then a bass amp. Low end is very inconsistent gig to gig. The best sound I've had was running through an 8x10 Hartke rig (borrowed from one of the supports) with a DI blended with a mic on the cab. Mic was a E609 if I recall correctly.
I asked the sound guy what he was doing and he was taking out all the horrible high end in the DI signal and using that for low end, and then blending that with the midrange of the miced cab. This is ideal. It ended up sounding a bit more natural than what I usually get from the sound guys which is 'turn that amp down on stage and we'll let the DI do all the work'.

If I could use this blend every gig, it would be great. Unfortunately, in most of the venues I'm playing, sound guy's will always refuse to mic up the bass cab and I have to rely on the DI in the FOH.

I was curious if you guys, in your infinite wisdom, had any ideas about how I could better approach the low end of my rig in order to attain more consistency, or perhaps improve my overall tone. Being primarily a guitarist, I've put all my eggs in one basket by focusing on my guitar tone, and not the bass side.
I thought maybe having a cab sim on my board that I could double up with the straight DI signal to artificially recreate the mic blend would be a good idea, but I'm not sure how well these would work on my weird 'bass' tone, and I don't know the cab sims on the market that well.

When we last recorded, we ended up using just a straight mic signal but on a PA cab with like a 20" speaker in it. That sounded great in the mix, but I doubt it would sound good live.

Any ideas?

[JonnyAngle]

I don’t know why sound guys have a kaniption against micing the bass cabs. Even for a 2 piece!

You can get a speaker sim to cut some of the highs.

Muffs tend to bury a bass in the mix. Try a fuzz with more mids.

[BetterOffShred]

I don’t know why sound guys have a kaniption against micing the bass cabs. Even for a 2 piece!

You can get a speaker sim to cut some of the highs.

Muffs tend to bury a bass in the mix. Try a fuzz with more mids.

These are great ideas all around. And I would also look into other means of boosting the frequencies you hand the sound guy, EQ or low-mid thick fuzz. There's also the issue of what kind of frequencies your pickups are tossing at the pedals too.

[BoatRich]

I’ve done this with a bass vi and a guitar. The best way is definitely separate amps and mics. DI is not friendly to distorted bass. An EQ pedal on the “bass” side also helps a lot for shaping the initial tone of the octave down.

[crochambeau]

You could also bolt a gooseneck to your cab, bring your own mic and tell the sound engineer THAT is your DI.

[goroth]

I have no good advice except Fuck soundguys with their infernal insistence on DI'd bass. It's just laziness.

[ognoy]

Bring a cab/amp sim for the D.I signal. I do this when I run the Bass VI with both guitar and bass amp. I got a cheap Behringer sansamp-clone, but it sounds OK.
But micing the bass cab would be ideal.

[ibarakishi]

DI is not friendly to distorted bass.

and this:

Fuck soundguys with their infernal insistence on DI'd bass. It's just laziness.

[KingNed]

Nice ideas dudes.

I also have that Fuzzrocious designed MXR bass distortion, which is a RAT with a clean blend. I AB'd that with my muff (a green Sovtek version I built with loads of NOS parts) and the Muff just sounded way better solo, but I guess I need to consider its role in the mix more. Any other suggestions of cool bass fuzzes that could work in this context?

I think I might end up bringing a gooseneck and my own mic. Also, any suggestions of how I go about shaping my octave signal with an EQ? I'm not sure what I should be going about changing. I suppose suppose getting rid of some of the nasty high end frequencies and adding a bit of midrange might be a good idea.

[oscillofuzz]

I have experience with this on both sides.

As musician who fullfills the role of bassist with a bass vi in a trio, I tend to tell sound engineers who I don't know or who haven't already visibly set up a mic+DI combo that I play baritone guitar so they will at least pull out a SM57 or something. If they are more advanced (in both communication and as engineers) I am of course willing to do a DI as a secondary for extra articulation in the lows, but this will require an active sound guy as massive fuzz straight through DI always sounds meh unless there is a cab sim or something involved. I also always try to be in touch with the sound engineer to discuss options in a somewhat relaxed setting as soon as I enter the venue, to get them on 'my side' before the hasty changeovers have to be done in 15 instead of 30 minutes because the last band ran late etc.

As semi-pro (meaning I get paid real amounts but it isn't my main source of income) sound engineer, I tend to contact bands as soon as they enter the room.to discuss what was on the rider, if the set up has changed, what I can expect volume-wise, if there are extreme differences in levels/types of sound I should know about, etc. In regards to DI I usually straight up ask the bassist or dude providing the bass signal (I have done duos like yours before) what they prefer and why and try to find some middle ground there, because the musician will most probably not know the dynamics of the particular room while I do as that's part of my job.

Especially for duos it's not a lot.of hassle to do a blend since there are very few other factors to worry about, but on the flipside, this will require a sound check as levels and required EQ on the desk will in no way be comparable to what the previous band did. Hell, for guitar in a duo to not sound thin I prefer 2 mics on the guitar too for some panning

I agree for the most part that the give-the-bassist-a-DI-and-you're-done attitude is grounded in laziness or inexperience, but there are cases in which this is simply the most viable, least risky option for you, the sound engineer, in regards to your workflow since it is a job fuelled by haste as soon as the venues doors open up to the public.
For example, when a band is arrogant or ignorant and thus refuses to or does not know how to cooperate, a DI on the bass will provide a signal you can at least work with to get some low end in the strings, and one that cannot be tampered with too much on stage (guitarists on small stages fuck with your mic placement way more than they should, IME).

Another situation that can happen is a band with 3 guitarists and a bassist playing a small venue that simply does not have enough mics available to mic up 4 string players. In such a situation, if the bassist acts like he knows his shit, I will usually tell him to turn up on stage, while telling the guitarists to turn down, and pretty much use the DI on his signal the same way you would use a single kick drum mic in a small venue; for reinforcement only, and then layer the mic'ed guitars and vox on top of the drum and bass guitars stage levels.

[KingNed]

Most of the time, we get a soundcheck. There's usually enough time for the engineer to listen to my sound piece by piece and work with it, if they're good. However, having been gigging in my city for a few years and having played every venue there is many times, I know pretty much all of the engineers. A few of them simply don't give a shit. I played a gig with a band who we're good friends with the other day; and the singer, upon politely asking for more vocals in his wedge, had 'DON'T TELL ME HOW TO DO MY JOB' shouted at him.

That's not to say that all are terrible. I know a good few who are both lovely people and great at their job, but there are just as many incompetent ones. It's luck of the draw who's going to be doing the sound gig to gig. The ones who care are usually willing to put in a bit more effort in the bass sound, but when you're on a gig with 4 other bands with 15 minutes changeovers usually they're pretty rushed.

[MechaGodzilla]

The *best* sounding 2-pieces I've seen live didn't rely on adding a sub octave the whole time, but had a generally full and fat sounding guitar with octaves/synth pedals used for emphasis here and there.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread about getting a good live sound in general. It's a festivus miracle!

[BoatRich]

Nice ideas dudes.

I also have that Fuzzrocious designed MXR bass distortion, which is a RAT with a clean blend. I AB'd that with my muff (a green Sovtek version I built with loads of NOS parts) and the Muff just sounded way better solo, but I guess I need to consider its role in the mix more. Any other suggestions of cool bass fuzzes that could work in this context?

I think I might end up bringing a gooseneck and my own mic. Also, any suggestions of how I go about shaping my octave signal with an EQ? I'm not sure what I should be going about changing. I suppose suppose getting rid of some of the nasty high end frequencies and adding a bit of midrange might be a good idea.

Cut extreme highs for sure, I’d boost low mids and up through like 750 hz in a subtle curve with the most boost around like 125 or 250 hz?

[KingNed]

The *best* sounding 2-pieces I've seen live didn't rely on adding a sub octave the whole time, but had a generally full and fat sounding guitar with octaves/synth pedals used for emphasis here and there.

Yeah, I try and use the bass as an additional element to amplify certain sections and stuff, but sometimes it sounds wicked just go ham the whole way through. Some of our best received songs tend to be just all on all the way through so I'm not sure what to think sometimes. What kind of synth pedals have you seen used well in this application?

Cut extreme highs for sure, I’d boost low mids and up through like 750 hz in a subtle curve with the most boost around like 125 or 250 hz?

Sounds cool. I'll give it a go.

[rickenbastard]

No DI at all. Only mic’ed. Bring an SM57 with you and that’s it. If they refuse then tell them not to run that amp through the monitors and you’ll just rely on stage volume and crank the thing. It’ll sound awesome