The Mandela Effect and Other Ludicrous Things

[Iommic Pope]

Pretty much.
I mean, financial gain is probably the primary motivator for most modern misinformation, so unless there are a bunch of self help books out there for those having an existential crisis about living on a sphere...

(Sparrow, I love what you're doing in this thread, but I have discuss these things as part of the natural flow of conversation. Otherwise I'd have some napalm for your campfire. )

[psychic vampire.]

See, Terrence McKenna is where i can get on board. Science is absolutely not as neutral as atheists would have us believe; what gets researched, funded, and proven is absolutely in the service of propping up certain pwers and political or social narratives. So some guy wants to say human evolution is a result of eating psilocybin, which is actually an intergalactic spore that traveled here from space on meteors. Sure. i won't say it's definitely correct, or even that i believe it, but why we are the way we are has literally zero bearing on my life and this is as credible as anything science or religions would say.

Actually, a lot of modern science is pretty "out there", you just need to read up on recent developments, not expect mainstream media to be completely up to snuff. Assuming your problem is with the kartesian focus on dead matter. Apart from that, I agree with you. I'm not convinced by McKenna, but that might be partly because of the kind of people who usually cling on to his narrative. People who love drugs sure love to make everything be about drugs.

Drug fuelled minds can't melt logic beams.

Corporate science, yes.
But that's not what the essence of science is.
And just because a thing has had no apparent bearing on your life does not in any way mean you haven't been affected by it.
Plus that is fairly reductive to say that atheists want you to believe "everything scientific".
The whole point of science (and by extension, scepticism) is to DISPROVE a claim, not simply to provide proof. So a theory must be shown to work under all conceivable conditions before it is accepted as a law.
A classic example of this is our knowledge of thermal exchange, which we once took for granted as fact but now are seeing doesn't apply absolutely.
So, science in fact, does not try to dictate to you a set of laws and theories, but instead is giving you a picture of the universe based on our best current knowledge. Which science is always endeavouring to improve by questioning, exploring, reviewing and amending.
Which religion does not.
And which crackpot theories about taking an organic compound does not.

Understand the fundamentals of science and it isn't a scary boogie man cooked up by big brother.
I understand though, that economic rationalists now have the chokehold on all that is good about humanity and are doing their best to pursue the evil and inane, but even that is up for vigorous debate at the moment and there is a push for governments to fund more "scientific" research and steer away from exploring niche areas for short term economic gain.
Or, as I like to call it, Global Weyland-Yutani.

I understand this, i actually have read a good deal on the weirder parts of physics, though not in a while. I just fundamentally disagree with y'all's stance. I mean, it seems we agree corporate interests have a chokehold on the scientific "progress" that happens today. I just personally believe that even the people who believe in the possibility of scientific progress, when science is divorced from said corporate or political interests, are coming from an anthropocentric point if view. at the end of the day, i hold a personal position that technology and civilization - and all the components that prop them up - are worse for the planet and all animals, and that humanity should not hold dominion over the Earth or non human lives. I know it is a wing nutty belief, and i also have literally zero expectations that others will agree, it is just where i am coming from. I also know that this is a fight i have already lost, i know that some scientists actually agree with me, and i know that this belief is mutually exclusive with me using the internet to post on a message biard about electrical boxes. I live in a society that forces me to be a hypocrite every day.

[Eivind August]

Well, you have a more negative idea of civilization than me, but apart from that I think we share some ideals. I think I mentioned it to you in another thread, but check out Holmes Rolston's "Environmental ethics". It deals with precisely-ish what you are talking about, and is a pretty influential work. I'm currently reading "The ecological self" by Freya Mathews, which you would also probably find interesting. We might still end up disagreeing, though.

Disclaimer: I'm coming at this from philosophy, not an actual science.

[psychic vampire.]

Disagreeing rules though. If i never disagreed with anybody, i would never have a chance to critically evaluate my positions and examine the world in new and interesting ways, i would be stuck in the same dogmatic thinking forever, and fuck dogmatism.

To be fair, i am coming at this much more from philosophy too. Also, i am pretty firmly convinced that my feelings aside, civilization is here to stay, at least for the most part. I dislike it a lot, but that won't change anything, so here i am, reading about flat earth and psychedelic apes and fuzz pedala that go BWERP. I will check out both those works, have them written down on my night stand.

[Iommic Pope]

A lot more "real science" at least in my country, is dealing with our impact on the planet and trying to deal with environmental issues like climate change, natural energy, the impact of harvesting natural resources on the environment, population, consumption.
The government doesn't listen to most of it but scientists are often given a voice in the media to refute policies that will be damaging in the long term.
So I think it depends on your scope.
It's probably easier to look at the shitstorm and throw your hands in the air and say, "none of these fuckers care" but the reality is most scientists really do, but economic factors put the kybosh on them from making a real impact.
I mean, the Australian Government just shut down the lab here that was contributing to the recent breakthrough on gravitational waves, which is a big fucking deal, but the reaction from both the scientific community and the public has been quite vocal in its disgust.
Particularly when, now, nobody can continue that research.
But people's outrage gives me hope.
I think we are approaching the point as a species where we are ready to step up and explore our place in the universe.
Which is a process that involves both stepping up and learning how to take care of this planet and each other.

[psychic vampire.]

I firmly believe that i am just less optimistic and more angry about where Mongolia is than many people.

[Sparrow]

to D.O.S. and JWAR. sorry if i seemed rude at all. i Honestly Love you and ILF
and Jwar. i thought you secretly knew. and.. i was hurt a lil

because this > [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkwBpIMp3hI[/youtube]

He's not a book. or a corrupt church. or anything i knew before this summer. because i myself - personally - never bother to look.

[Sparrow]

[gnomethrone]

He's not a book. or a corrupt church.

(read in Terrence McKenna voice:)
Heeee is aaa mushhhhrooooom

[snipelfritz]

I'm just saying...but what if, on my taint, was another person's face with their own consciousness wondering the same thing I'm wondering right now.

Because I've never bothered to look.

[Sparrow]

(read in Terrence McKenna voice:)
Heeee is aaa mushhhhrooooom

i've checked that out actually. and i like Terrence McKenna

I'm just saying...but what if, on my taint, was another person's face with their own consciousness wondering the same thing I'm wondering right now.

Because I've never bothered to look.

[DADGBD]

I just personally believe that even the people who believe in the possibility of scientific progress, when science is divorced from said corporate or political interests, are coming from an anthropocentric point if view. at the end of the day, i hold a personal position that technology and civilization - and all the components that prop them up - are worse for the planet and all animals, and that humanity should not hold dominion over the Earth or non human lives. I know it is a wing nutty belief, and i also have literally zero expectations that others will agree, it is just where i am coming from. I also know that this is a fight i have already lost, i know that some scientists actually agree with me, and i know that this belief is mutually exclusive with me using the internet to post on a message biard about electrical boxes. I live in a society that forces me to be a hypocrite every day.

[Jwar]

I love you bros too. But fer real, the world is not flat. LOL.

Ok. I'll stop. But it's not.

[D.o.S.]

See, Terrence McKenna is where i can get on board. Science is absolutely not as neutral as atheists would have us believe; what gets researched, funded, and proven is absolutely in the service of propping up certain pwers and political or social narratives. So some guy wants to say human evolution is a result of eating psilocybin, which is actually an intergalactic spore that traveled here from space on meteors. Sure. i won't say it's definitely correct, or even that i believe it, but why we are the way we are has literally zero bearing on my life and this is as credible as anything science or religions would say.

Actually, a lot of modern science is pretty "out there", you just need to read up on recent developments, not expect mainstream media to be completely up to snuff. Assuming your problem is with the kartesian focus on dead matter. Apart from that, I agree with you. I'm not convinced by McKenna, but that might be partly because of the kind of people who usually cling on to his narrative. People who love drugs sure love to make everything be about drugs.

Drug fuelled minds can't melt logic beams.

Yeah. I say this pretty much any time the topic comes up, but I love this sort of stuff the same way I love science fiction. Some fun, mostly harmless diversions about possible reasons for why the world may be (I'm a sucker for origin myths in the same fashion), and there are enough McKenna interviews out there that allude to the fact that he was pretty aware he was peddling a line of bullshit at the base level.Trialogues at the Edge of the West is a great read, but it (like a lot of the esoteric pulp/intellectual erotica stuff from the mid 90's) doesn't hold up particularly well beyond being a great example of what you can get when you have people committed to having a conversation in depth.

There is a lot more effort into that (and the real scientific community) than a tossed off YT vid, IMO.

[kaeth]

The closest thing to my bible are the works of Sextus Empiricus, so I try to be a skeptic and reserve judgment whenever possible. That said, I really dug Food of the Gods. I'd never concede that it's true, but I think the Stoned Ape Theory is... plausible. It's not definitely false. McKenna has however thrown out a bunch of theories that are not so plausible, at least not in an objective sense, but I do like that he tried to challenge the status quo, regardless of whether he hit or miss.

Science has boundaries. Empiricism can only take you so far, and there is a whole world of fantastic things that will remain forever beyond the reaches of science. The problem is that those things reside subjectively. When people try to take those things and present them as objective truth that applies to everybody, you get stuff like the Mandela Effect. The world around you didn't change; You changed. Occam's Razor, man.

Conspiracies are self-validating. Every challenge to the existence of a conspiracy results in the conspiracy growing larger. The Earth is flat. Then that means that everyone in every space program is in on the conspiracy. Every pilot or ship crewman who has been across the ocean is in on it. Every analyst that tells you the space photos are genuine is in on it. Conspiracies do happen, but there's a certain level where it starts to get pretty ridiculous.

And now, I leave you with this (written by Kerry Thornley, who ironically and tragically fell victim to his own paranoia in subsequent years)

THE EPISTLE TO THE PARANOIDS
--Lord Omar
1. Ye have locked yerselves up in cages of fear--and, behold, do ye now complain that ye lack FREEDOM!
2. Ye have cast out yer brothers for devils and now complain ye, lamenting that ye've been left to fight alone.
3. All Chaos was once yer kingdom; verily, held ye dominion over the entire Pentaverse, but today ye was sore afraid in dark corners, nooks, and sink holes.
4. O how the darknesses do crowd up, one against the other, in ye hearts! What fear ye more that what ye have wroughten?
5. Verily, verily I say unto you, not all the Sinister Ministers of the Bavarian Illuminati, working together in multitudes, could so entwine the land with tribulation as have yer baseless warnings.