Ring (and/or Balanced) Modulation for the modulator masses

[Chankgeez]

[lordgalvar]

Haha...

Another thing I was thinking about: Anyone passive ring mod their CV signals to create new CV signals? I'm sure modular people do this...videos?

Anyway, more videos:
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=acxwGb4I_-8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=keHsVyf5630[/youtube]

[Chankgeez]

Another thing I was thinking about: Anyone passive ring mod their CV signals to create new CV signals?

That sounds like an awesome

I'm usually just a plug & play peep (or plug & turn the frequency knob until it sounds good), which may explain why I use Green Ringer more than I use an actual ring modulator.

I am, however, interested.

[lordgalvar]

I'm very much a plug and play set and forget person too haha.

Was just thinking that some cool waveforms could be made for control voltages.

At around 9min, there is a pretty good illustration of the difference between digital and analog (passive) ring modulation plus a visual on the waveform.
[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=junuEwmQVQ8[/youtube]

Also, some nice shots of the harmonics resulting from ring modulation and explanation of why I like running clipped (more squared) signals into ring mods.

[Chankgeez]

I like your ideas and oscilloscopes are always amazing to look at (especially when they're purple).

Years ago I almost took an analog circuit design course, but I spent the money on pedals instead.

[lordgalvar]

I like your ideas and oscilloscopes are always amazing to look at (especially when they're purple).

Years ago I almost took an analog circuit design course, but I spent the money on pedals instead.

Education either way! haha.

Thanks man!

I should get my oscilloscope setup (and maybe calibrated) so that I can actually see what all these ring mods' ranges are actually at...It is too daunting though haha...

It's interesting to see the rounding of the waveforms when all diodes are on due to shut off lag...

I kinda wonder how the CD4001 and AD633s look in comparason? I'd assume they both have some different thresholds with their gates....

I'm going to be the ring mod champion one day haha (I guess I am going 16 years experience with them though...with 20+ different ones ).

http://www.parasitstudio.se/vero-layouts/carlin-ringmod -> guess I should link Freppo's carlin ring mod layout and his nice gated carrier oscillator...nice way to mute bleed.

[Chankgeez]

Peter Hook suspects Hannett used a ring mod on the snare (along w/ a Synare) on "She's Lost Control":

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PtvIr2oiaE[/youtube]

What do you think?

[Chankgeez]

Sounds like there be some nice ring mod (or something) on this electric piano here:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDpiX2FRIPw[/youtube]

[lordgalvar]

Sounds like there be some nice ring mod (or something) on this electric piano here:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDpiX2FRIPw[/youtube]

There is some ring mod on there for sure. Now what the carrier is actually is the big question. Sounded almost like a Theremin or ribbon thing at times...but could have just been a little companion organ.

Jury is still out on joy division drums.

Edit: dang fingers don't like phone keyboard

[crochambeau]

Jury is still out on joy division drums.

Yeah, that sounds like a REALLY short digital delay with several cycles of repeat fed into some verb to me, something like an old Digitech where you can do push-button increment/decrement of delay time in the 1-9ms range (to get the pitch wander at the end of the song). Could be wrong though, the beginning reeked of delay, the end dinged my confidence in that assumption a little.

[Chankgeez]

yeah, he was definitely known for using a very quick delay on drums.

[coupleonapkins]

Here's one of the few AMS digital delay unit demos I could find (along w/ an AMS chorus, which might be working in tandem w/ the trails on the delay):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu9HBoM34Wo[/youtube]

But since it's Martin Hannett, the world may never know (except that it may have been recorded one drum at a time). The pitch changes in "She's Lost Control" sound too musical (sorry?) to my ears to just be a ring modulator, but if any of you are at Jonny Greenwood's house, he apparently has 3 of Hannett's delay units, so

[lordgalvar]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km1UHsWc2GI[/youtube]

You can kind of hear the ring mod mangling the waveform of the drums as the carrier frequency gets increased in that video (right around 1:50)...

I don't hear that in the Joy Division song. I think crochambeau and coupleonapkins are right in looking at digital delays. I kinda hear the drum sound get slightly shorter and increase in a pitch like the sample is shortening.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r1NZuKJyKI[/youtube]

I can hear a little of that in the video (and I know Visconti/Eno/Bowie were using them on the drums on Low)...but I don't hear the sweep on it...so I think that crochambeau is right on the money with just changing the delay time maybe and creative tracking?

There may be ring mod mixed in there somewhere, but I can't really hear it (and the song sounds way different through good headphones and not on youtube...forgot how much different it is haha). Lots of delays (or tape manipulation) and panning going on all over that track.

Also, looking at the ring mods that where out at the time (maestro, jen, EHX, etc) none of those would have pulled that off and I think a modular (and/or) passive ring mod would have been more like that first video in this post (though that guy had way too many drums going through). But, on the other hand, with intelligent planning (marking out pitches to get the full musical shift, editing, and some other form of wave shaping) it is kinda possible. But, then again, I don't hear the sum and difference changing, just the overall frequency...so probably delay? Like everyone else already said? haha.

[Chankgeez]

I think you guys are probably right. All this is based on something Peter Hook said. So, he most likely just misremembered.

And knowing of Martin Hannett's production methods, that's no surprise.

[lordgalvar]

Diode ring-modulation: The carrier and modulator are crudely multiplied, using a digital model of a diode ring-modulator. TIMBRE post-processes the resulting signal with a variable amount of gain (and emulated diode clipping).

Digital ring-modulation: A gentler version of the previous algorithm which uses a proper multiplication operation in the digital domain, which will sound more similar to all the AD633-based analog ring-modulators out there! TIMBRE post-processes the signal with a gain boost and soft-clipping.

Warps is all digitial but interesting that they created two modes to emulate what was seen in that video I posted last page. The other thing that was neat was that they say AD633 are closer to perfect digital ring modulation (which I guess makes sense because they limit on/off time).

[youtube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tkJj4yt97ws[/youtube]

A little bit of mixing CV via ring mod in that video plus good visualization of waveforms...but a really good video...

(and illustrates that whatever you put into a ring mod really makes a difference on the sound...it doesn't always have to be that classic sound...nice waveshaping in the video with 5ths and stuff...but it may actually add validity to the joy division drums thing...he could have patched something in to give them a more metallic sound and then mixed it back with the original sound then did all the pitch tricks? I dunno, but it is possible, and it had crossed my mind...just seems like a lot of work for not that noticable of an effect).