Being 'PC' and 'safe places' on campus. The Younger gens

[daseb]

yeah, and I mean sometimes when you've been told to 'calm down' and 'be careful' your whole life when you're trying to make some space for yourself, feel like we can't really blame people for yelling or deciding nothing is going to come from more talking.

I mean the argument that this kind of identity politics is a symptom of white privilege is a hugely important one too, one I'd definitely never really looked at that much but it definitely reminds me of a lot of the stuff that was happening around intersectionality and post colonial feminism when I was at uni. I just get wary of this stuff when people start talking in the language of the oppressors about it. Like yeah it's uncomfortable and hypocritical and doesn't make sense and all that. That's no reason not to let it breathe and see what comes of it.

[casecandy]

Like yeah it's uncomfortable and hypocritical and doesn't make sense and all that. That's no reason not to let it breathe and see what comes of it.

That's fair and I agree.

But I do feel like it's becoming harder to criticize liberal movements without looking like a dick.

Like... if a person of color is being discriminatory or prejudiced, and I point it out, I'm derailing, diverting, mansplaining, gaslighting.

It's like ugh, this isn't the fucking debate team, who even talks like that?

I literally had someone tell me, "Your bourgeoisie attitude isn't helping"

EDIT: Even now I dodged around using the word "racist"

[popvulture]

Totally with you. I think it's an issue where there's absolutely tons of grey area and it's vital to be thoughtful. And yep, the language of the oppressors phenomenon is troubling.

EDIT - that was replying to daseb

[casecandy]

it's vital to be thoughtful

That's really all I'm trying to say.

[popvulture]

Yeah it's tricky for me being a very liberal person and being frustrated with inflammatory / combative right-wing rhetoric, only to feel the same sort of unreasonable-sounding stuff from my own side. People are pissed on all sides these days though, and rightly so.

Really I'm just a fucking hippie idealist at heart. I hate arguing.

[daseb]

Yeah I dunno. I'm sure there's people that are just looking for points or to get laid too. But that's no different to every other radical political movements ever. It's frustrating as hell sometimes but I sort of feel like I'd always rather give room and time for the people that are trying to push back against the system than the ones who want to accept it. Feel like part of that can be listening and taking it on board that you may actually be part of the problem in ways you hadn't considered rather than going 'but I'm a good person, I'm not your enemy'.

This is all super easy for me to say from my white collar job and nice house and everything though, so, whatever.

[D.o.S.]

dase bb you're sort of glossing over the consumer culture aspect of higher education, which is a massive part of this phenomenon. It has little to do with insincerity (unlike the Whirr thread when we last talked about this shit) and much more to do with people subverting what should be a sticking point of academia because they're paying tuition.

[daseb]

Oh dude for sure! I know nothing at all about higher education in the states. Just sticking up for the idea of things like safe spaces .

Commercialised higher education here just seemed to turn unis into places designed to churn out sports therapists, primary school teachers and lawyers who would quit in the final year.

[Invisible Man]

But I do feel like it's becoming harder to criticize liberal movements without looking like a dick.

And this is an excellent defense maneuver for those who deploy it--just make an ad hominem attack on the "racist," and everyone will quickly devolve from there.

Sometimes this is founded, sometimes it isn't, but who is to judge that...? Not me.

Anyway, it's always been my belief that the classroom is the 'safe zone' at colleges and universities. I think it was in this thread that I talked about provoking the shit out of students. I frequently teach on the 'n word' (scare quoting because I'm not sure it's cool to say it here), issues surrounding women's bodies, mass shootings, &c. Students are generally pretty willing to offer up personal anecdotes--not that I ask--and it goes better than I could hope, even if I do get really sweaty while it's happening.

Part of the reason I suspect it happens is that these are curated discussions. I don't usually start a session with this stuff--we talk about Plato and the Kardashians, or propaganda and Ke$ha, or somesuch--but, once we've established some trust, we go there. One of the things I don't hear being talked about a lot regarding the PC issue on campus is that classrooms are not public spaces, and that students know the expectations and rules associated with classrooms. They generally raise their hands, wait to speak, don't call names, and respond in turn. They sometimes listen when their professors have something to say, too, and ask questions when confused (or irritated). So in that way, there's a kind of centralizing force at play. When this shit happens at the bodega, or town hall meeting, or comments sections on the internet, or any public space, things get ugly really quickly.

One of the reasons for this is that we all tacitly understand that we go to class to learn, to try new things, to hear others' views, &c. Some disagreement and argumentativeness is expected there, and people are usually equipped to deal with it. So classrooms are certainly not safe, but they're the closest thing we've got on campus, or perhaps anywhere.

One more note: I've gotten myself into some trouble with my approach before. There have been no complaints, but I think there were two courses where I could not motivate a bunch of suburban kids to talk about race. They just didn't care. So I goaded them until the lone student of color in the class flipped out and ripped the rest of his class a new asshole. Told them about a large number of things that'd happened to him, and watched the class become increasingly cowed about it.

I never got that class back on my side, but, damn...they sure as fuck learned something, even if I couldn't teach it. All of this is to say that: I tend to take a neutral position on these things, even if the fact that I bring them up in class at all probably betrays my own bias on them. I just facilitate, and try to bring reason, history and scholarship into the mix so that people get some tools to talk about this stuff so that they don't do all of the dumb things that people are doing. Too many folks just argue to win, regardless of the original aim, or the damage incurred along the way.

"But I'm right!" or "Those are the facts!" are the things I hear most often, but, as any statistician will tell you, facts are transient and ephemeral. The world is more complicated than figures, I think.

[t-rey]

But I do feel like it's becoming harder to criticize liberal movements without looking like a dick.

And this is an excellent defense maneuver for those who deploy it--just make an ad hominem attack on the "racist," and everyone will quickly devolve from there.

Sometimes this is founded, sometimes it isn't, but who is to judge that...? Not me.

Anyway, it's always been my belief that the classroom is the 'safe zone' at colleges and universities. I think it was in this thread that I talked about provoking the shit out of students. I frequently teach on the 'n word' (scare quoting because I'm not sure it's cool to say it here), issues surrounding women's bodies, mass shootings, &c. Students are generally pretty willing to offer up personal anecdotes--not that I ask--and it goes better than I could hope, even if I do get really sweaty while it's happening.

Part of the reason I suspect it happens is that these are curated discussions. I don't usually start a session with this stuff--we talk about Plato and the Kardashians, or propaganda and Ke$ha, or somesuch--but, once we've established some trust, we go there. One of the things I don't hear being talked about a lot regarding the PC issue on campus is that classrooms are not public spaces, and that students know the expectations and rules associated with classrooms. They generally raise their hands, wait to speak, don't call names, and respond in turn. They sometimes listen when their professors have something to say, too, and ask questions when confused (or irritated). So in that way, there's a kind of centralizing force at play. When this shit happens at the bodega, or town hall meeting, or comments sections on the internet, or any public space, things get ugly really quickly.

One of the reasons for this is that we all tacitly understand that we go to class to learn, to try new things, to hear others' views, &c. Some disagreement and argumentativeness is expected there, and people are usually equipped to deal with it. So classrooms are certainly not safe, but they're the closest thing we've got on campus, or perhaps anywhere.

One more note: I've gotten myself into some trouble with my approach before. There have been no complaints, but I think there were two courses where I could not motivate a bunch of suburban kids to talk about race. They just didn't care. So I goaded them until the lone student of color in the class flipped out and ripped the rest of his class a new asshole. Told them about a large number of things that'd happened to him, and watched the class become increasingly cowed about it.

I never got that class back on my side, but, damn...they sure as fuck learned something, even if I couldn't teach it. All of this is to say that: I tend to take a neutral position on these things, even if the fact that I bring them up in class at all probably betrays my own bias on them. I just facilitate, and try to bring reason, history and scholarship into the mix so that people get some tools to talk about this stuff so that they don't do all of the dumb things that people are doing. Too many folks just argue to win, regardless of the original aim, or the damage incurred along the way.

"But I'm right!" or "Those are the facts!" are the things I hear most often, but, as any statistician will tell you, facts are transient and ephemeral. The world is more complicated than figures, I think.

Re: the whole divert into pointing out bias, prejudice, racism, etc. to distract from the issue. I'm definitely with you on that, it negates any valid argument the person has and changes it into a whole new argument, like an attorney trying to undermine character. It's a pretty shitty thing to do, since literally everyone has some form of known or unknown bias they operate from, but it does allow the argument to be more easily won, which is kind of what it's all about anymore

I'm totally stealing the classroom as safe space thing. Because that's exactly what it is (or should be). Safe space in that it's a safe environment to explore and debate these issues while learning about your own bias and gaps in knowledge without (too much) fear of criticism for your views because you are there to learn and develop.

[Invisible Man]

That's the ideal. But it doesn't always work out. You have to work hard at handling it well, whether you're a student or instructor. Things get tense sometimes, but those classes are almost always fantastic, even if feelings get hurt. I like to think back to my own days in school, and I remember those classes fondly--like, you can probably remember a couple things from any given course, but the ones you remember best are the contentious ones.

The attorney/character assassination analogy is spot-on. Hadn't thought of that, but it's exactly what I mean. It is unproductive when we're trying to learn or talk, and highly effective when we're trying to convince a body of people of a point. This is why I say "classrooms help people to not do dumb things" like argue about their own subjective realities...this happened recently in the "Holy Shit Paris" thread, I think. We get so convicted of our ideas that we focus on winning rather than on whatever might be more productive. Seems to happen a lot when we get hurt, which that attack definitely accomplished.

We're all a little racist, or misogynistic, or ageist, or classist. Admitting those things to ourselves and maybe to others is a hard but useful thing to do, and it'd help us get a little closer to avoiding the PC bullshit that's been happening. We're all trying to diagnose a problem, but no one will admit that they are a part of that problem. It's always someone else (preferably someone right-of-center).

Last note: I often start difficult discussions with a preamble about how this is likely the last chance they have to say dumb shit with no fear of consequence. They can simply walk away at the end of the day, which doesn't happen when you write an ignorant post, or insult a coworker, or get drunk and use a racial slur at Thanksgiving. So "safe space" equates to "sensitivity practice," or "asshole training" in the best case. I think there's a lot of fear of doing things with this approach. My class today talks about Victoria's Secret models and the scatological/angelic divide with their portrayal of sex. We inevitably end up arguing about women's underwear choices, and whether people make intentional choices about this. Male students are rapt; female students are pissed at me. It's borderline inappropriate, it fucking rocks, and it's an amazing gateway to more complex feminist positions, some of which are articulated by students (male and female) without their realization...so that part is fun as hell.

I just keep a huge slideshow of male and female underwear ads going for the whole class, too, just for stimulus. No one has fallen asleep in this class...but it's still curated, and relatively safe.

[casecandy]

We're all a little racist, or misogynistic, or ageist, or classist. Admitting those things to ourselves and maybe to others is a hard but useful thing to do, and it'd help us get a little closer to avoiding the PC bullshit that's been happening. We're all trying to diagnose a problem, but no one will admit that they are a part of that problem. It's always someone else (preferably someone right-of-center).

EXACTLY. The "We never owned slaves" defense.

[snipelfritz]

Funny how, on the converse side, Donald Trump saying "I know it's not politically correct to say but..." gives him instant carte blanche to get away with any xenophobic bullshit.

[D.o.S.]

You could argue that Bill Maher does the same thing.

[snipelfritz]

Yeah, and Bill Maher is just terrible.