Holy Shit Paris!

[D.o.S.]

The difference, of course, would be that one position can be defended with facts and the other is, well, yours.

Of course, if anyone has anything they'd like to share (research, articles, stories, etc.) about IS as a secular threat with no religious motivation, I'd love to read it.

[Invisible Man]

Shitty thread is still shitty. What is the aim here? It seems as though the more convinced one is (and this applies to everyone--myself included) that he or she is right, the closer they get to the instrumental thinking that allows for absolutism to be possible. This isn't to say we should live without conviction, but to say that we're doing a terrible job of communicating these things without anger and ad hominem attacks.

No one is going to "win" this "debate."

EDIT:

This is such a bummer to me...we're losing people to this garbage. I guess I just need to check out of this thread...see you guys later.

[D.o.S.]

still waiting for links. Would love some substantiation beyond personal convictions and, frankly, being able to vent over wanton stupidity is a personal way of dealing with the fact that the world is fucked.

Either way appreciate your input Dad don't sprain anything handwringing about the state of the thread.

[snipelfritz]

still waiting for links. Would love some substantiation beyond personal convictions and, frankly, being able to vent over wanton stupidity is a personal way of dealing with the fact that the world is fucked.

Either way appreciate your input Dad don't sprain anything handwringing about the state of the thread.

Strange Tales posted this a while back and I think it emphasizes what I'm saying.
http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i ... prisoners/

I agree that religion is an integral part of ISIS, but rhetorically there's little purpose in emphasizing it unless your entire goal is to convert others to your religious views (see my last two posts for further thought on that).

[Invisible Man]

still waiting for links. Would love some substantiation beyond personal convictions and, frankly, being able to vent over wanton stupidity is a personal way of dealing with the fact that the world is fucked.

Either way appreciate your input Dad don't sprain anything handwringing about the state of the thread.

You're welcome, my son. I wish you the best on your quest to collect ideological pelts.

[D.o.S.]

Well played, sir.

I agree that religion is an integral part of ISIS, but rhetorically there's little purpose in emphasizing it unless your entire goal is to convert others to your religious views (see my last two posts for further thought on that).

I think it's important to know exactly what you're talking about in a conversation like this, and when I read something that's demonstrably wrong/misguided, I tend to go off. Apologies, obviously I think most of you are great people and you're all well-intentioned.

[Eivind August]

Uhm, I'm not really sure what we're argueing about anymore.

See, D.o.S., you posted this article (which was a great read) from which you quoted this:

In the past, Westerners who accused Muslims of blindly following ancient scriptures came to deserved grief from academics—notably the late Edward Said—who pointed out that calling Muslims “ancient” was usually just another way to denigrate them. Look instead, these scholars urged, to the conditions in which these ideologies arose—the bad governance, the shifting social mores, the humiliation of living in lands valued only for their oil.

Without acknowledgment of these factors, no explanation of the rise of the Islamic State could be complete. But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesn’t matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes he’s doing so for religious reasons.

This is basically the same arguement I made, with extremism blossoming in fucked up places, which Snufkino quoted. Doesn't that mean that we all more or less agree? Am I missing something here? Yes, jwars statement that religion doesn't play into it at all is of course not true if you understand 'religion' as meaning faith. However, in other discussions I've been in, I've seen people using 'religion' as being only moderate, "normal" faith. Sort of a defence mecanism from people who themselves hold religious beliefs, and it is obviously problematic, but is it really that hard to get where he's coming from?

I'm not saying we are all in perfect agreement here, but what difference of opinion we have is blown way out of proportion. Yes, one guy read an article, one guy went to a liberal college, whatever. Nobody here is an expert, and this discussion isn't going anywhere when reduced to personal attacks.

I love you.

[D.o.S.]

"The earth is flat."
"no the earth is round."
"my practical perception of the earth is that it's flat."
"the earth is still round."
"that's, like, your opinion man."
Third party: "all opinions are created equal, I think we should agree not to argue about whether earth is flat or round."

It's not that I don't understand the viewpoint -- it's that the viewpoint is wrong. This has been a total Mugatu thread. Whatever.

[Eivind August]

Fair enough, but shouldn't it have been one post, then? I'm not going to go back and read through all of this, but jwar was the only one saying that religion had nothing to do with it, no? Then the discussion centred on how the environment and history of the middle east has made extremist religion a powerhouse, and how that can be construed as meaning that religion in itself is not the problem here. Less flat versus round earth, more round versus spherical earth. Of course religion is a problem, but why did it come to that?

But yeah, as you said, whatever. This isn't really leading anywhere.

[BitchPudding]

What even happened here? I'm lost.

[The Velvet Hammer]

-The Velvet Hammer.

[BitchPudding]

Haven't seen you in a bit Velvet Hammer! How you been?

[Invisible Man]

What even happened here? I'm lost.

Some assholes with incoherent politics and religious views killed a bunch of people, thereby (intentionally) rolling a live grenade into everyone's conversations about religion and politics. ILF started a thread with good intentions--one that reached out to members of community that we were worried about. It quickly and predictably devolved into a defensive series of arguments about said politics and religion. Everyone got butthurt, nothing got solved, murderous assholes had a small measure of success in waging their ideological war.

[casecandy]

I have so much to say, but I just cannot fucking keep contributing to this. Ugly shitty thread.

[SPACERITUAL]

Can i just chime in to say that the "I don't care/too cool to care/let it go" mentality fucking irks me to no end? I haven't read this thread and with my past theres no way I'm touching this argument (ill probably just agree with DOS anyway) with a ten foot pole but can we all stop acting like were judd nelson? If you don't care about todays culture and current events and things that impact us as a society then fuck off to a hut in the desert somewhere.