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I've been asked to come into a high school and discuss some ideas about the reformation of Public Education. I'd like to add some stories of personal experience to my talks, so if any of you have had good times/bad times in school (elementary, middle, secondary, post-secondary) or general concerns about public education and feel like sharing, I'd appreciate it. My talks are based on the North American system but any experiences from all over the world would be helpful for contrast/comparison purposes. Myself, I had a pretty terrible time throughout most of my schooling career and I hope to help influence a shift in education from the current industrial/static style of education to a more dynamic method, that to my mind, is more in line with the current and future needs of youth and addresses the many and varied ways of learning that people have. A few of these ideas include the concept of experiential or progressive education (the idea that that students should be involved in real-life tasks and challenges) vs traditional education, the concern of a lack of engagement in students in the learning process, the idea of a standardized curriculum and how it may or may not be focused on the needs of tomorrow, and the classroom experience from the point of view of both the teachers and the students.

I realize that this may be a bit heavy (not to mention WAY off topic) for ILF, so no biggie if y'all don't have much to share. If, on the other hand, you do want to share an anecdote or two with me, please either post here or send me an email at ricardo dot elbandito over on gmail.com.

Thanks, guys!

How'd you land that job?

I have a friend that teaches at a high school and volunteers to teach at the Don jail in Toronto and her and I were having a talk on education a couple of weeks ago. This has been a hot topic for me for a while and as such, I had a wealth of information and ideas to share with her. I brought her some of my writings on the topic, which she then brought to school to share with the faculty. I guess a lot of ppl had stuff to say about either what I wrote, or on the topic in general, so they've decided to have a sit-down. Apparently, I'll be meeting with the faculty to have a semi-casual discussion and possibly talking to a class on the topic in January.

It's not really a job as I won't be getting paid but hey, if I can help make school better, that's payment enough right?

It may not be a huge pile of info but its fairly up to date. Bear in mind I live in holland. Very simple image of school system:

4-12 = Primary School
12-16/17/18= High School at age 16 (4th year) you choose a 'profile' which lets you pick & mix subjects to work towards study. There are 3 levels of high school. VMBO which is only 4 years and the easiest it allows you to do MBO when you are 16 for jobs such as: Mechanic, Builder, Plumber etc.
Havo takes 5 years is slightly harder and allows you to do HBO which leads to jobs such as: Accountant, Nurse etc.
VWO takes 6 years and is the hardest level. It allows you to go to University where you can become: Scientist, Lawyer, Doctor, Archeologist etc.

My personal experiences are with Gymnasium which is VWO + Latin and Ancient Greek.

1. Forced Modernisation: Laptops and Imacs are bought by the bucketload and scarcely used. These are added on top of the pc's that are availabe in the school library/media/study room. When they are in use they serve mostly as a source of distraction. I have never seen one being put to good use. However a school has to 'go along with the times' the thousands of euros spent on these fancy gadgets could be put to far better use.

2. Lack of resolve towards misbehaving students: It wasn't that bad on my school but I have been to others and seen so many kids get away with frequent misbehaving. And I'm not talking skipping classes or talking in class. I'm talking vandalism, drug abuse and severe bullying. I know boys will be boys (and girls will be girls) but there is a border. And when this happens more than once little to no action is taken untill it is too late. Personally I haven't had any trouble with bullies during high school since I beat up one of them but I've seen that same boy tear down stuff, pick on kids half his size etc. etc. He was 18 for crying out loud. he should have been well past that. He even did so in front of teachers. Who become seemingly blind once one of them starts. I'm not saying he should hit them or anything but they could at least do SOMETHING.

3. The increasing influence of parents/others in school policies: Now it's fairly big here but I think it's worse in America/Canada where I remember a poll where 60% of all parents believed they should decide what happens with and in the school. Now I don't want to upset any parents on here but what makes you think you know how to educate your and other children academically. You are vital in ensuring they become good people but teachers and school boards have done the academic part for a very long time and probably even studied for it. It is a time and age where everybody suddenly has a say in anything but that shouldn't be the case for certain instances. I am young and do not have kids so I do not know how important your children are but have faith in the educational system at times (Although maybe the Canadian/American system might such what do I know).

well, i'm currently in high school (sort of)

my junior year i went with PSEO and now i just take college classes. i only step foot in high school for band and mock trial lol.

honestly my major issue with high school lies with the incompetency of a lot of the teachers. some of them just barely graduated high school and how they got through college remains a mystery. that's not to say i didn't have a few great ones, because my good teachers were REALLY good. my major issue is that a lot of teachers have the bare minimum education required. a lot of teachers also don't show interest in teaching. how can anyone expect kids to be interested if teachers can't even PRETEND to be?

i agree that things should be taught in a way that lends itself to real-life application. i think that might help kids become more interested in education. a lot of kids who were in my high school classes had this mentality that while we were learning, it was only important to memorize the information, and not absorb it. these kids would get good grades, but still not really *know* what was going on or have any real understanding of what they were learning. i was in all honors and AP, if honors classes are like that, then wtf. i know you can't make kids want to learn things or care, but changing the attitude towards learning and education starts with kindergarten. i guess it actually starts with the parents.

i've been ranting and i don't think i've actually been addressing much lol. sorry hahaha

I agree with the above, as well as that stupid (sub human) kids can slide by somehow, oh wait online sites, this kid in my English class hasn't read a single page of teh two books we've read but still has an "A" in teh class, what the FUCK, also punishment if I were a teacher I would give out alot more detentions, the same kid that never reads is always blurting out and being obnoxious and doesn't get punished, his mouth is like an asshole with diarreah, it just spews painfully obnoxious stuff no one wants, I'd beat him in the face with a baseball bat, this is why I am not a teacher.

In short, proper punishment and test questions that test people's "smarts" not always just facts.

The4455 wrote:t if I were a teacher I would give out alot more detentions...
In short, proper punishment and test questions that test people's "smarts" not always just facts.

Do you think detentions are effective? I rarely went to my detentions and they just gave me more for me to skip out on. As teachers can't physically hold kids in a class, how can they really enforce a punishment?

How can we test "smarts" instead of facts? Can any test that's written on paper and not held in some sort of real life application actually test smarts? Are we doing enough problem-solving lessons? Would more of those types of questions on tests be better than multiple choice or fill in the blanks? What percentage of each should there be?

These aren't necessarily real questions... I'm just thinking out loud here.

elbandito wrote:

The4455 wrote:t if I were a teacher I would give out alot more detentions...
In short, proper punishment and test questions that test people's "smarts" not always just facts.

Do you think detentions are effective? I rarely went to my detentions and they just gave me more for me to skip out on. As teachers can't physically hold kids in a class, how can they really enforce a punishment?

How can we test "smarts" instead of facts? Can any test that's written on paper and not held in some sort of real life application actually test smarts? Are we doing enough problem-solving lessons? Would more of those types of questions on tests be better than multiple choice or fill in the blanks? What percentage of each should there be?

These aren't necessarily real questions... I'm just thinking out loud here.

Multiple choice, matching, and fill in teh answer questions are designed for people to succeed, which isn't bad, but when you desighn something so people can seem smart doesn't test smarts, I think more short answer questions and like you siad problem solving questions would be better, also opinion questions, and "if you were in so and so's shoes what would you do" wuestions, in terms of detentions, at my school if you skip one you get two more so three in total and after so many (I think 5) total you get suspended which can't be avoided, I've had two, ever, and I went to both honestly they're not that bad. I would drop their grade a letter for not attending their detentions. The questions you asked me are perfect for your presentation they pose (obviously) questions of relavence and challenge the way things are done, and I love a challenge!

elbandito wrote: A few of these ideas include the concept of experiential or progressive education (the idea that that students should be involved in real-life tasks and challenges) vs traditional education.

This...

My gf is an NYC teacher...I'm making her post here (hk hasn't been around in a while but is getting back into synth stuff...maybe she'll come back )

The mayor of NY just appointed a publishing executive to the head of the largest education system in the country. She has ZERO experience in education.
Applying a business model to schools won't work, much in the same way the business model failed our military (hello Iraq/Afghanistan)...and you know...our economy

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVXhA_hs2J8[/youtube]

This video sums up education in a nutshell. I've been working in a New York City public middle school for a few years now. I thought I would teach English, exposing kids to the world of literature and meaningful discussions. Instead I am forced to teach a curriculum that is based on boring reading skills. There is no whole class text. Each student has their own independent reading book. I just teach them how to "envision" or "empathize." I'm supposed to assess them based on reading logs which are usually made up and reader's responses which are also largely made up.

I get in trouble if my mini-lesson is longer than 12 minutes. I am also required to analyze and submit data reports constantly which are virtually useless to me as an educator. When I was told to start questioning kids with higher order thinking questions taken from Bloom's Taxonomy, I asked how I was supposed to do this when all of my students are reading different books. The answer I got was, "It's not important to ask them the actual questions, it is more important to teach them how to do this type of thinking." Everything is educational jargon bullshit. Knowledge has become irrelevant and it's just plain sad.

The4455 wrote:

elbandito wrote:

The4455 wrote:t if I were a teacher I would give out alot more detentions...
In short, proper punishment and test questions that test people's "smarts" not always just facts.

Do you think detentions are effective? I rarely went to my detentions and they just gave me more for me to skip out on. As teachers can't physically hold kids in a class, how can they really enforce a punishment?

How can we test "smarts" instead of facts? Can any test that's written on paper and not held in some sort of real life application actually test smarts? Are we doing enough problem-solving lessons? Would more of those types of questions on tests be better than multiple choice or fill in the blanks? What percentage of each should there be?

These aren't necessarily real questions... I'm just thinking out loud here.

Multiple choice, matching, and fill in teh answer questions are designed for people to succeed, which isn't bad, but when you desighn something so people can seem smart doesn't test smarts, I think more short answer questions and like you siad problem solving questions would be better, also opinion questions, and "if you were in so and so's shoes what would you do" wuestions, in terms of detentions, at my school if you skip one you get two more so three in total and after so many (I think 5) total you get suspended which can't be avoided, I've had two, ever, and I went to both honestly they're not that bad. I would drop their grade a letter for not attending their detentions. The questions you asked me are perfect for your presentation they pose (obviously) questions of relavence and challenge the way things are done, and I love a challenge!

dropping grades for not attending detentions is a really bad idea. what does behavior in the classroom really have to do with their grade? i was a huge dick to many of my teachers (only if they deserved it) but i earned good marks.

there's no really good way to handle punishment imo. detention is a waste of time for all parties involved. however, sometimes you get parents that really care, and you can call them and tell them when their kid is acting up. however it seems more and more that parents BACK UP THEIR KIDS when they are acting out. our assistant director (who just graduated last year) cussed some girl's mom out during marching band season for this reason. he's one of those sassy types. i love it.

It's not that grades corrilate to behavior it's just a good way to send a message "fine you wanna dick around in class you now have a D!," and I agree with being a dick to teachers that deserve it/giving them their won medicine kinda thing, but most of my teachers are cool, punishment although is hard to enforce, is pretty well inforced in my school and kinda like this forum the only real ruel is "Don't-be-a-dick, and you'll be fine."

unownunown wrote:honestly my major issue with high school lies with the incompetency of a lot of the teachers. that's not to say i didn't have a few great ones, because my good teachers were REALLY good. a lot of teachers also don't show interest in teaching. how can anyone expect kids to be interested if teachers can't even PRETEND to be?

i agree that things should be taught in a way that lends itself to real-life application. i think that might help kids become more interested in education.

What made those teachers stand out from the others?

And honestly - If there's a really, REALLY ugly girl that likes you and wants to make out, could you pretend to like her day in and day out? I doubt it. This is exactly what it's like for many teachers in a school, I'm sure. The system works against those educators that are passionate about teaching. It works against the students that really want to get something fulfilling out of their time in school. This makes everybody involved crabby and takes away the zest of being in school or teaching in one. Try not to be so hard on your teachers, even if they're dispassionate. Just like you, they're just victims of the same crime.

unownunown wrote:dropping grades for not attending detentions is a really bad idea. what does behavior in the classroom really have to do with their grade?

there's no really good way to handle punishment imo. detention is a waste of time for all parties involved.

I'm of the mind that punishment rarely works. A reward-based system is much more effective. That's not to say that there should not be a penalty for students that act in a disruptive way but that positive reinforcement could be a very effective way to sway the general student population toward compliance, which would then cause the disruptive types to essentially alienate themselves from the group. Nobody really wants to be an outsider though, and I think that many of the ones left in this group would find a way to reconcile their anger with their desire to have friends and buck up, so to speak.

Also, I think that educators need to know more about their students and the reasons why they act the way they do. Past experiences and current circumstances conspire to create a person's personality and determine how and why they react to certain stimuli. I believe that if teachers and students had more time together (ie: students didn't have a brand new set of teachers every semester), then educators would have a better understanding of a particular student's needs, while the student them self would have a closer bond with the teacher. Does that make sense?

Gunner Recall wrote:Applying a business model to schools won't work, much in the same way the business model failed our military (hello Iraq/Afghanistan)...and you know...our economy

They seem be be stuck on the Assembly Line model of education that they've been using since the beginning of Industrialization... I suppose they consider this a step toward the future.

hellokippo wrote:This video sums up education in a nutshell. I've been working in a New York City public middle school for a few years now. I thought I would teach English, exposing kids to the world of literature and meaningful discussions. Instead I am forced to teach a curriculum that is based on boring reading skills.

I get in trouble if my mini-lesson is longer than 12 minutes. I am also required to analyze and submit data reports constantly which are virtually useless to me as an educator. When I was told to start questioning kids with higher order thinking questions taken from Bloom's Taxonomy, I asked how I was supposed to do this when all of my students are reading different books. The answer I got was, "It's not important to ask them the actual questions, it is more important to teach them how to do this type of thinking." Everything is educational jargon bullshit. Knowledge has become irrelevant and it's just plain sad.

I'm sad to hear this but I'm even sadder to hear that this seems be making you become disillusioned with educating. It seems to me that there's as big a divide between the educational bureaucracy and the educators themselves, as there is between taxpayers and those that we elect to lead our countries. I think that in both cases, we need a significant change in the way things are structured.

Is there any way that you can maybe scan a copy of one of these (unfilled) data reports and send it to me? I'd like to analyze it and see what it entails. I find myself wondering how the administration of your school thinks that the "actual questions" are not related to the kids learning "this type of thinking".

Knowledge has NOT become irrelevant. The deeper problem is that a real and serious divide has grown between what's really relevant in the new millennium and what was relevant in the 30's when this method of teaching was really solidified. I will post a link to my paper and presentation when it's ready, for your perusal. Don't become like so many teachers before you, Hellokippo. Don't let the robots take your passion. While we're all trying to find a workaround, connect with other faculty and talk to them about their ideas and perspectives on this topic. Together, we CAN change things.

i was brutally bullied until i graduated high school.

i don't know if there are any real solutions, but it's certainly an issue that needs to be addressed.