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Intolerant of stupidity is exactly why I'm having this discussion. Stop being so stupid.

Just because you stated that before doesn't mean it was rational or convincing in any way.

oscillateur wrote:Religious extremists kill more than one hundred people explicitly because of religion

Change the last word to "a specific religious belief" and it makes perfect sense to me.

Generalizing religion in such extreme terms makes no sense to me.

As heated as this discussion gets, I still love you puppies.

Your rhetoric is slipping, mate.

Maybe you're 18 or so and think you're oh so smart and want to have super interesting discussions and show the world how intelligent you are but all you're doing is purposefully misinterpreting other people's worlds and arguing for no reason.

People are not "generalizing religion", get off your high horse and just fuck off.

Edit : that was meant for snipelthing (can't see the name from the edit page)

But I waaaaaannnnnnnt to argue.

One of the big issues people in the US have is religious freedom being a cornerstone value. If we remove religion from the conversation I think that it would simplify a lot of things.

ISIS=Extremists
KKK= Extremists
WBC= Extremists
The type of business that measures success by how much money is being generated, right now, with no other moral compass = Extremists
People who base their actions off right wing talk show hosts and then burn a church, beat up a homosexual, go on a shooting spree = extremists

etc.

Considering that there's an unsettling rise of extremists being recruited in Australia, everyone's statements here are equally right and wrong in their way. But it's worth remembering that ISIS has been responsible for the deaths of many, many Muslims - likely more than any other faith. They have also on many accounts have destroyed actual historic and Religious artifacts and texts related to Islam.

The two major problems is that while extremists are doing malicious attacks under the name of Islamic State, there's a great possibility that ISIS is primarily hundreds or thousands of smaller sects all under a single cause that may not actually that that much to do with another. The Sydney Siege last year was a lone wolf attack trying to draw attention. There's also been separate attempts by young 'Muslims' to publicly behead civilians in Australia. These attacks have been prevented or and have been swiftly traced and dealt with. Considering how anyone can claim to be apart of a 'Hacktivist' group, who's to say that people can't just do an act, then ISIS simply approves it if it fits their ideals?

The other problem, in theory, shouldn't be an issue - but in a social media world it would be incredibly hard to tackle effectively. It likely comes down to a cultural roadblock, which is Elderly Muslims aren't doing enough to educate younger people and rest of society about these issues. In the Middle East, there isn't an emphasis on going to a social worker, psychologist, councilor if you have issues - you going to a Spiritual leader instead and that simply is a cultural component that doesn't exactly meld in a multicultural society. So, it would be incredibly easy for an insecure person with undiagnosed mental disorders aged between 18-27 who hasn't got a solid world view to start looking for answers. Especially being raised Muslim and because their parents are self contained in their own community, the young person searches for answers online. Which leads them to a charismatic extremist leader that speaks directly to them, cherry picking concepts from the Quran, just like a cult. The only difference is that these random 19 year olds just get sent overseas only to get a bomb strapped on them. Or rather, that's likely how the recruiting would go, over here, people suspected of fleeing the country are immediately stopped.

If there is an Islamic backlash, it only confirms to ISIS that there is a war against the West. The refugees attempting to flee ISIS' reign end up being persecuted.

That, or these people are just sick fucks and use Religion as a scapegoat because it's waaaaaaay more Political than anything else.



This is my devils advocate as a confused Agnostic.

#notallmuslims etc.

Good post, Andrew. Glad to see someone delwing a bit deeper into the subject when we're first having this discussion. This was what I was getting at when I said that extremism is the symptom, not the disease. Sure, religion plays a huge part in this, but it's worth noting where extremism prospers and why. Extreme poverty, fucked up living conditions, anger etc. leads to young men joining the people that will give them guns to destroy a perceived enemy. Whether they're doing it for religion, nationalism, political ideology or whatever is of course interesting, but the result remains the same. In the west, ISIS can recruit poorly integrated muslims who feel out of place in the society they live in, and, as jwar pointed out, young men who just wants to point a gun at something. ISIS is hardly a uniform group.

Now, religion is a really handy way of recruiting people, as it's an easy tool to justify your actions. "Oh yeah, I don't have to argue with you, God says that this is right, and you can't argue with the big guy." Belief in a greater cause makes it easier to do crazy shit. So the young men gets to play with guns, destroying what they believe is the reason for their own misfortune.

Ugh, this was a bit simplified and all over the place, but there might be something in there somewhere. Honestly, I just get tired of this americanized (no offense, #notallamericans) way of debate where you're supposed to score points against each other instead of having a meaningful dialogue.

It's only Americanized if you don't know your history, tbh. And also there's a pretty clear history delineating the difference between attacks that get coopted by larger terrorist groups and attacks that are actually planned by them -- post-9/11 the trend was not to take credit for an attack you hadn't committed, since, you know, the threat of invasion, etc. This corresponds nicely with the decline in the state sponsored terrorism that was so prevalent in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's, and for many of the same reasons.

Furthermore, the idea that the people making up ISIS/ISIL 'may not have a lot to do with each other' is only correct insofar as any given population of any country (which is, after all, what they're trying to establish here) fits that definition. You don't end up over there by accident, after all.

D.o.S. wrote:It's only Americanized if you don't know your history, tbh.

True, typed before I had my morning coffee, sorry. It's just that American debates excel at it in this era. Also, the discussion you guys were having, though not without merit, was sorta annoying in form.

Good post, though. Treating religion as THE problem in this case is alienating and causes misunderstandings, was what I was trying to say earlier.

D.o.S. wrote:http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

God, every time someone shared that article this weekend it was like:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLHvb9V8Yzs[/youtube]

It's worth pointing out that the story was originally published in February, so it doesn't account for the last couple of months -- which sort of require a reassessment. As a primer for what their daddies are and what do they do, though, it remains unequaled.

UglyCasanova wrote:faith in humanity lost. again.

You should focus on what happened afterwards.

I read that a hashtag came up where the French people offered their homes for people to spend the night that were stranded due to the attacks. To me there are few things more noble than offering your home to a stranger.
.
In the face of absolute evil the most beautiful facets of humanity absolutely shine!

echoraven wrote:

UglyCasanova wrote:faith in humanity lost. again.

You should focus on what happened afterwards.

I read that a hashtag came up where the French people offered their homes for people to spend the night that were stranded due to the attacks. To me there are few things more noble than offering your home to a stranger.
.
In the face of absolute evil the most beautiful facets of humanity absolutely shine!

Thanks for pointing out some of the positive things that are developing from this tragedy.
Hopefully an event like this can unite more than it divides.