Wren and Cuff Pedals: Washers, lube and miscellaneous love..

[goroth]

about huge things and seeing Matt here... a have an off-topic question

why the huge ...tip...? ...some people can get really worked up ...but ...the Big Muffs are just way too big

[wrenandcuff]

If you check the description on our site, it pretty much explains it.
Basically, I wanted to do something special, and make it like the OG muffs.

[DarkAxel]

Even though people might bitch, it's respectable to see you do your thing and not let the vox populi affect it

[hazelwould]

Hi There.
Thanks for those of you pitching in to this discussion.
Also, please know that I am trying to address the comments in this discussion, and not trying to pitch our pedals in a veiled way. I hope that comes across in this response.
First, I'd like to clarify the point of my previous post. It has absolutely nothing to do with liking or disliking our pedals, this pedal, any of our pedals.
I would never say a word to someone who has tried a pedal and hated it... or even those thinking a pedal is a bad idea, or they don't see the logic in it. I get it, and have been at this long enough to know all of us musicians are strongly opinionated and all have different idea's of good and bad.
The thing I admittedly got a bit defensive about, was my feeling that it was implied the price of the pedal was bloated and the pricing illogical.
It seems that sometimes there is an animosity toward small businesses that make effects. Some people fail to realize that when starting this business, the end goal IS to make money. As much passion as I have about doing this, I do want to make a descent salary and need to make a profit for the countless hours put into this.
I have said this before, so go ahead and accuse me of preaching, but there is a book called outliers in which the author tries to break down in a scientific manner, how people achieve success in their chosen field. One common denominator he finds is that most have had at least 10,000 hours of experience before becoming successful. I've done the math, and I am well beyond that when it comes to making effects, no joke. I say this because this is part of what makes our pedals different and relates to why I sand off component ID's in our pedals.
Most of us know that it's pretty easy to buy a kit for a certain pedal and get a nice working pedal for pretty cheap. That's fun and satisfying, and a cool thing to do.
So one of the dilemma's I had when Wren and Cuff really started rolling was, what the hell am I going to do that can be different in a saturated market of effects companies.
I realized one thing. Getting a schematic, using all the "correct" parts, and recreating a vintage pedal can result in an excellent sounding pedal, but when a/b'd against a real vintage unit, it almost never sounds the same, sometimes not even in the same ballpark.
Why? because there are sooo many variables at play. I finally decided to throw the whole "cloning" via part for part components thing out the window and try to figure out how to really achieve the desired sound rather than focusing on part numbers and component values. Sometimes the original parts do do the trick, but often they do not.
So I bit the bullet and started yanking apart sometimes expensive vintage units and constructing through deconstruction. I'd tried to find parts that actually did what the originals did, and were able to mimic the characteristics of the vintage pedals accounting for parts aging and that weird effect on electronic components that happens when they are used for years on end. This takes a LOT of homework and often requires using a part that one would usually not associate with that pedal. A Wren and Cuff pedal average's 6 months to a year's worth of R and D before it is done.
If you were to ask my employee's and distributor, they would tell you that all this research and obsessiveness has sometimes caused problems when we need to get a new pedal done and I'm taking a long time to complete it.
You'd see me with our proto version, and a vintage unit, going "see, it just doesn't have that mid-range smooth growl of the original." And you'd see my guys looking at me going, "I don't hear it dude... Sounds the same to me...", until they hear the end result.
After putting in all that work, I simply don't want to make it take 5 mins to pop open a pedal, see the results of all this tweaking, and copy what I've spent so much time trying to achieve. May sound dumb to some, but that's my reasoning.
Take the HM-2. The op-amps in there are totally different than the originals. But choosing the one's I chose allowed the sound to be achieved, but achieved with the end result having a dramatically lower noise floor, and a total consistency from pedal to pedal.
Someone else mentioned using "factory seconds". If I could find them, I would love it! Getting components that have been used for years can be great, but look around and you'll see they are very hard to come by if looking for a specific component. That and they are sometimes more $$ than a new component, or will save you a dime if you are lucky. It's not worth bothering with them unless you are hoping they will benefit the end sound.
As far as "beating the fun out of a discussion," as another poster mentioned, when has that ever stopped people from posting their opinions on a pedal forum?
I think I have as much right to ruin a good time as anyone else.
So there you have it.
Oh, and most of you are right, from a business perspective, the HM-2 makes no sense. But I personally think there are lot's of Metal heads and Shoegazers out there that will love the benefits the Hangman has. Time will tell if I'm right or wrong....
THanks again for the compliment guys, they are very much appreciated when I'm stressing about a new release and ranting online about why I know everything... Basically hiding my insecurities through misdirected anger. Isn't that what the internet was made for?

So, you'd say you've reached the "mastery" level? I actually find that really interesting.

[JohnnyC]

i find it so hilarious/yet sad that some people are quick to bitch about price of parts for a boutique pedal and yet don't even flinch at the markup... of say something like a boutique/aftermarket pickup.

[Holy Schnikes]

This thread is a lost cause. $250 HM-2 is excessive. That's all there is to take from this. Kudos for making one tho, I like that "fuck it" attitude. Artwork could've been better.

[wrenandcuff]

So, you'd say you've reached the "mastery" level? I actually find that really interesting.

No, not at all. I didn't say mastery, and it has nothing to with that.
It means I've put in a lot of hours at this and I'm proud of it and I feel I'm good at what I do.
I don't even know what the hell "mastering" making pedals would look like.
I can't move a solder iron with my mind if that's what you mean...

As far as the pedal being a lost cause... Simply put, I disagree.

[wrenandcuff]

This thread is a lost cause. $250 HM-2 is excessive. That's all there is to take from this. Kudos for making one tho, I like that "fuck it" attitude. Artwork could've been better.

Artwork could have been better? Wow, that's below the belt. Sorry, I like to keep it simple.

[Andrew]

...I have had 2 HM-2s. The MiT one I had was much nicer than my Japanese, which has way less gain than the Taiwanese.

Sounds great on Bass though.

[Schlatte]

I must say I'm always amazed at those picturing us sitting around wringing our hands trying to figure out ways to rip people off.
Really?
I can assure you that is not the case. You are paying for a number of things when you buy a pedal from us and the prices are not random.
Here's a few of them:
Parts and assembly
The cost to rent a mid sized shop each month
Providing USA small business jobs to four people. These are real employees that are registered with the IRS and pay real taxes.
Allowing me to pay myself and help support my family and pay a mortgage
Allowing me to be the proud owner of a small business that is functioning in a healthy way
Completely hand assembled pedal. Nothing is preloaded. Every single component is placed into the PCB and soldered, all wires attached by hand and hard-wired to the pots and jacks (nothing mounted on the board), and oh yeah, someone gets paid a good rate to do that here in the shop.
Think you can create a line of pedals and try to make a fulltime job of it because all a pedal costs is the money for "a few components and a painted enclosure"? Go for it. Be prepared to work 16 hour days, do a ton of research, deal with the ups and downs of business, be in the negative for a long time, and pray to god it works out while trying to compete with huge companies that can crank out pedals for almost nothing.
Yes, because of all of you willing to pay our "boutique" prices, I have the glory of being able to drive a 2004 Volvo wagon with over 100k miles on it. Living the high life.
If you don't want to pay the price of our pedals, then don't. But please think before making comments not taking into account the fact that the people involved in said company actually want to be able to have it be their job, and work their asses off trying to make it happen.

BTW, thx to those of you who dig our stuff. I appreciate it. And if you want to know why we sand off the IC's and transistors, just ask, and I'll tell you why I have the audacity to do such a thing. I'll post it here later if ya want.

Hi There.
Thanks for those of you pitching in to this discussion.
Also, please know that I am trying to address the comments in this discussion, and not trying to pitch our pedals in a veiled way. I hope that comes across in this response.
First, I'd like to clarify the point of my previous post. It has absolutely nothing to do with liking or disliking our pedals, this pedal, any of our pedals.
I would never say a word to someone who has tried a pedal and hated it... or even those thinking a pedal is a bad idea, or they don't see the logic in it. I get it, and have been at this long enough to know all of us musicians are strongly opinionated and all have different idea's of good and bad.
The thing I admittedly got a bit defensive about, was my feeling that it was implied the price of the pedal was bloated and the pricing illogical.
It seems that sometimes there is an animosity toward small businesses that make effects. Some people fail to realize that when starting this business, the end goal IS to make money. As much passion as I have about doing this, I do want to make a descent salary and need to make a profit for the countless hours put into this.
I have said this before, so go ahead and accuse me of preaching, but there is a book called outliers in which the author tries to break down in a scientific manner, how people achieve success in their chosen field. One common denominator he finds is that most have had at least 10,000 hours of experience before becoming successful. I've done the math, and I am well beyond that when it comes to making effects, no joke. I say this because this is part of what makes our pedals different and relates to why I sand off component ID's in our pedals.
Most of us know that it's pretty easy to buy a kit for a certain pedal and get a nice working pedal for pretty cheap. That's fun and satisfying, and a cool thing to do.
So one of the dilemma's I had when Wren and Cuff really started rolling was, what the hell am I going to do that can be different in a saturated market of effects companies.
I realized one thing. Getting a schematic, using all the "correct" parts, and recreating a vintage pedal can result in an excellent sounding pedal, but when a/b'd against a real vintage unit, it almost never sounds the same, sometimes not even in the same ballpark.
Why? because there are sooo many variables at play. I finally decided to throw the whole "cloning" via part for part components thing out the window and try to figure out how to really achieve the desired sound rather than focusing on part numbers and component values. Sometimes the original parts do do the trick, but often they do not.
So I bit the bullet and started yanking apart sometimes expensive vintage units and constructing through deconstruction. I'd tried to find parts that actually did what the originals did, and were able to mimic the characteristics of the vintage pedals accounting for parts aging and that weird effect on electronic components that happens when they are used for years on end. This takes a LOT of homework and often requires using a part that one would usually not associate with that pedal. A Wren and Cuff pedal average's 6 months to a year's worth of R and D before it is done.
If you were to ask my employee's and distributor, they would tell you that all this research and obsessiveness has sometimes caused problems when we need to get a new pedal done and I'm taking a long time to complete it.
You'd see me with our proto version, and a vintage unit, going "see, it just doesn't have that mid-range smooth growl of the original." And you'd see my guys looking at me going, "I don't hear it dude... Sounds the same to me...", until they hear the end result.
After putting in all that work, I simply don't want to make it take 5 mins to pop open a pedal, see the results of all this tweaking, and copy what I've spent so much time trying to achieve. May sound dumb to some, but that's my reasoning.
Take the HM-2. The op-amps in there are totally different than the originals. But choosing the one's I chose allowed the sound to be achieved, but achieved with the end result having a dramatically lower noise floor, and a total consistency from pedal to pedal.
Someone else mentioned using "factory seconds". If I could find them, I would love it! Getting components that have been used for years can be great, but look around and you'll see they are very hard to come by if looking for a specific component. That and they are sometimes more $$ than a new component, or will save you a dime if you are lucky. It's not worth bothering with them unless you are hoping they will benefit the end sound.
As far as "beating the fun out of a discussion," as another poster mentioned, when has that ever stopped people from posting their opinions on a pedal forum?
I think I have as much right to ruin a good time as anyone else.
So there you have it.
Oh, and most of you are right, from a business perspective, the HM-2 makes no sense. But I personally think there are lot's of Metal heads and Shoegazers out there that will love the benefits the Hangman has. Time will tell if I'm right or wrong....
THanks again for the compliment guys, they are very much appreciated when I'm stressing about a new release and ranting online about why I know everything... Basically hiding my insecurities through misdirected anger. Isn't that what the internet was made for?

Since I think this is an answer to my previous post, and I now have time to respond and internet connection again, I shall respond back.

I think we started on the wrong foot to begin with. I didn't want to say that you're ripping people off. I know that is not the case. I also didn't want to say your prices are random.
The only thing I wanted to say was, that I (yes, I personally) don't get how the price of this pedal compares to your other pedals. Like I said in my previous post... You had enclosures custom made... All the time spent designing them, building them, etc... And yet they're cheaper than this particular pedal.

I know that your pedals have to be priced that way for your company (and more importantly your employees) to survive. Maybe my previous post came off wrong, or you took it the wrong way.
Again, I did not want to accuse anyone of over-high prices or anything.
I hope this is resolved now.

[goroth]

wrenandcuff dude, have you done anything about the messed up taper on distortion on the HM-2 or is that part of the fun? That's one thing I've never understood about the HM-2, seems very ... un-Boss.

[woolyh]

...I have had 2 HM-2s. The MiT one I had was much nicer than my Japanese, which has way less gain than the Taiwanese.

Sounds great on Bass though.

People always say there's a big difference but I had both and the difference was negligible to me, I even had a peek inside and the boards were the same, just different caps.

Do love me HM-2, few pedals have the same low end thump

[hazelwould]

...I have had 2 HM-2s. The MiT one I had was much nicer than my Japanese, which has way less gain than the Taiwanese.

Sounds great on Bass though.

People always say there's a big difference but I had both and the difference was negligible to me, I even had a peek inside and the boards were the same, just different caps.

Do love me HM-2, few pedals have the same low end thump

I'm actually interested in trying an HM-2 now.

[goroth]

The fucked up EQ is what makes them awesome. The distortion is nice - kinda buzzy, loosey goosey, old school. A lot of the Swedish death sound I reckon comes from the additional hard clipping of slamming the front end of a solid state amp. But the eq is seriously weird, massively powerful and really good fun. You should definitely try one.

[blindrabbit]

I'm eager to hear some bass clips, that's for sure.

Personally, I think Wren and Cuff makes some incredible pedals. Clone or no clone, good box art or bad, whenever I plug into one of them nothing but awesome sounds come out. Like seriously, when considering how amazing the TFR sounds on bass, the pedal is probably UNDERpriced...and, yeah, its a clone of something else too...something that happens to be more like $300 on the used market as opposed to $50, but who knows what the situation will be in 10 years. All that and they are built rock solid, not to mention how amazing Matt is at backing his stuff up - doing repairs for free for non-original owners and whatnot. Plus he comes in places like here and TB to discuss his pedals even if its not all positively stuff - again, not like he's the only one who does this, but compared to some of the other jackasses out there (rhymes with truck cluck), this earns points in my book.

Hangman good or Hangman bad, I still like W&C.