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I hate secrets. I'm all for conclusions that don't make sense until you experience them yourselves, but to keep information from the seeker just for the sake of control is the same old Illuminati pyramid scheme bullshit that got us into this mess in the first place.

I'm also against memorizing a shit ton of names of supposed entities that don't have any explanation or basis other than "the Master said so." As if a bunch of transdimensional peeps really want me hollering their name when we haven't even met.

Yep, I agree wholeheartedly on most of that. Only stuff that should be secret is identifying information that allows you to masquerade as a group member when you're not, and in this day and age of easy communication, even that's becoming less necessary in practice since you can nearly instantly confirm that guest X is who they say there are.

And random conjuration etc. without reason (and "I"m curious", I suppose, *is* a reason) and the like isn't particularly useful unless those skills are required to actually do something, at which point "reason" applies and it could be explained.

I avoid groups with "masters" I am my master.
Teachers are good. Memorization is very useful.
As far as the name meanings and why,
That's formation has not ever been withheld from me.
From what I have experienced, secrets are withheld
Until you are ready for them so that when they are
Revieled they can bring on a state of gnosis.

Well Crowley was the "master." I mean it in the sense of any author or leader who expects followers to accept things on faith or without explanation. Magick if nothing else is a charting of the unmapped regions of the mind and spirit, and belief in unprovable entities should not be a requirement for this. I understand that some gods angels and demons are metaphors for principles and elements and whatnot, but the endless pantheon seems irrelevant to me. It seems like an external distraction when we are supposedly exploring something internal. If one could demonstrate the existence of something external or extraterrestrial then I might be more inclined to believe, but the only evidence of a living force outside of myself is in the natural world.

John wrote:Well Crowley was the "master." I mean it in the sense of any author or leader who expects followers to accept things on faith or without explanation. Magick if nothing else is a charting of the unmapped regions of the mind and spirit, and belief in unprovable entities should not be a requirement for this. I understand that some gods angels and demons are metaphors for principles and elements and whatnot, but the endless pantheon seems irrelevant to me. It seems like an external distraction when we are supposedly exploring something internal. If one could demonstrate the existence of something external or extraterrestrial then I might be more inclined to believe, but the only evidence of a living force outside of myself is in the natural world.

Crowley is a prophet not anyone's master.
To me ALL the angels and demons and gods and goddesses are metaphors, pieces of myself and pieces of the world as a whole (macro and microcosm). Speaking specifically about Thelema the only "rule" is Do What thou Wilt. So the way I look at Angels and Demons ect. And my view of the world, myself and even Thelema will be different than anyone else's.
There is no need to debate wether something is real or not because it does not matter. What maters, to me at least, is that the system works.
I found thelema through chaos magick though so I may decide to be a theist tomorrow. :bob:
Edit:
Where the fuck is the bob smiley?

Derelict78 wrote:

John wrote:Well Crowley was the "master." I mean it in the sense of any author or leader who expects followers to accept things on faith or without explanation. Magick if nothing else is a charting of the unmapped regions of the mind and spirit, and belief in unprovable entities should not be a requirement for this. I understand that some gods angels and demons are metaphors for principles and elements and whatnot, but the endless pantheon seems irrelevant to me. It seems like an external distraction when we are supposedly exploring something internal. If one could demonstrate the existence of something external or extraterrestrial then I might be more inclined to believe, but the only evidence of a living force outside of myself is in the natural world.

Crowley is a prophet not anyone's master.
To me ALL the angels and demons and gods and goddesses are metaphors, pieces of myself and pieces of the world as a whole (macro and microcosm). Speaking specifically about Thelema the only "rule" is Do What thou Wilt. So the way I look at Angels and Demons ect. And my view of the world, myself and even Thelema will be different than anyone else's.
There is no need to debate wether something is real or not because it does not matter. What maters, to me at least, is that the system works.
I found thelema through chaos magick though so I may decide to be a theist tomorrow. :bob:
Edit:
Where the fuck is the bob smiley?

I disagree about Crowley; for many people he (or the idea of him) is a dominant force or persona, which is what I mean by "master."

I am the opposite of you in that I found chaos magick via Thelema, and found it far more liberating than having to convince myself of the existence of things in which I do not believe. Self initiation and shamanism are more "real" to me than an archaic system which truly only works properly if you are Aleister Crowley or at least have Aiwass on speed dial.

Well it works for me and I am not aleister and don't have aiwass's #. I have something better though, I know myself, and I got that shit on speed dial! there, for me, is a lot of "pretending" to believe in things with chaos magick. Not that that is bad, in fact it's good to be able to change your enire paradigm at the drop of a hat.

Ha ok, no problem and I am glad it works for you. I just find Thelema to be too static and can become a religion for its more dogmatic adherents. Chaos magick as I have learned it doesn't require hanging on to any belief system. For me it's like scooping up some clay, making it into a club or a manuscript or a pocket pussy until I am done with it and then mashing it back into the universe.

I kind of agree, some OTO camps/lodges are pretty stale. I was told that chaos magick is "bullshit" by a "thelemite", dude was like III* as well. I have not been back there. Most are pretty rad though, I love debating philosophy/ religion with Thelemites. No one agrees on anything except do what thou wilt. Lots of Love and friendship.

Derelict78 wrote: To me ALL the angels and demons and gods and goddesses are metaphors, pieces of myself and pieces of the world as a whole (macro and microcosm).

This. I just choose whichever happen to click with me at the time. I largely create my own rituals and such, but I like using ancient symbols because they have a history, and it adds some extra psychological force to them for me. I think I said this before, but the Left Hand Hindu deities really work for me. Shiva as Bhairava and Smashana Kali, for instance. Though sometimes I use different aspects of Kali for different things. She has a lot of faces, like all the Hindu deities do.

On the topic of masters, I will just say that the word "guru" means "teacher," and that can apply to every aspect of your life that you have ever learned something from. One of the things that has largely kept me out of Crowley's works is that all of them are stamped with his name so hard. Alejandro Jodorowsky put it really well in an interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJHdOxgS-Vg) when he said something about the Tarot of Marseilles, specifically the one that he and Camoin restored. He said something like "the tarot of Marseilles has no author. Because it has no author it is anonymous, and since it was made by no one, it can be used (or will work for) everyone." This is why its the only Tarot I've used seriously up to this point. When someone makes something and stamps it with their name (or a pen name.....) they are putting their own ideas into it, and therefore, for people to get the most out of it they have to agree with those ideas.

All that being said, I don't know much about Thelema other than that I think "Do What Thou Wilt...." is a pretty good "law" to live by, and that the whole system seems generally too dense and convoluted for me to invest my time and energy into.

gunslinger_burrito wrote:One of the things that has largely kept me out of Crowley's works is that all of them are stamped with his name so hard. Alejandro Jodorowsky put it really well in an interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJHdOxgS-Vg) when he said something about the Tarot of Marseilles, specifically the one that he and Camoin restored. He said something like "the tarot of Marseilles has no author. Because it has no author it is anonymous, and since it was made by no one, it can be used (or will work for) everyone." This is why its the only Tarot I've used seriously up to this point. When someone makes something and stamps it with their name (or a pen name.....) they are putting their own ideas into it, and therefore, for people to get the most out of it they have to agree with those ideas.

That all's pretty much what I was getting at. I'm not slamming Thelema at all. It's kind of like BDSM vs. regular goodfucking. More complicated than I personally need to get off.

Some of the best shit I've got from uncle Al is regarding yoga.

Yeah his book on Yoga is great.

Hippies.

Personally, I believe Thelema can be a lot more flexible than some of it's current followers would like to admit to. You are quite right in claiming that it can be dogmatic and static at times, but you see that more or less with just certain members in the OTO and other adherents of the system, however it paves the path for those not satisfied with static and can be a great tool of evolution. One organization I have been personally toying with looking into is the Dragon Rouge, Karlsson the founder will be coming stateside in the near future and it would be interesting to meet the man at the very least.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZEZTNwpH04[/youtube]