The Occult Thread

[rfurtkamp]

That's keyword spam and someone trying to make Budge worth something (it's a century out of date in Egyptology).

There's nothing "necronomicon" about it.

[Chankgeez]

Spells

[John]

Simply put: I want to learn what it's all about. I was thinking about getting a Satanic Bible for starters. Overall I'm looking for an understanding of Satanism and what it actually is as opposed to what is propagated by the church,

Satanism, in most places you will find it being purveyed, is rocky horror picture show drama club costume shop garbage. Uncreative junk. Most of them are only a step above reading the bible backwards and fake blood capsules. The more original members of satanica are either strict philosophists or just good at scowling weak people into the sack. This version of demonism is as imaginary as the Abrahamic religions they mock.

Zeena and Nik Schreck are pretty interesting, though they aren't officially Satanists any more. Dude is def a werewolf.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exWUeQ53ICg[/youtube]

[gunslinger_burrito]

Simply put: I want to learn what it's all about. I was thinking about getting a Satanic Bible for starters. Overall I'm looking for an understanding of Satanism and what it actually is as opposed to what is propagated by the church,

Satanism, in most places you will find it being purveyed, is rocky horror picture show drama club costume shop garbage. Uncreative junk. Most of them are only a step above reading the bible backwards and fake blood capsules. The more original members of satanica are either strict philosophists or just good at scowling weak people into the sack. This version of demonism is as imaginary as the Abrahamic religions they mock.

There are the crazy versions of Satanism or Luciferianism or whatever they call it where they do actually believe in a "devil," and worship him. Some varieties explain this devil in different ways. Look up the Order of Nine Angels, for instance.

Then there's LaVeyan Satanism, which, in layman's terms, is like atheism with some more added to it. LaVeyan Satanists should acknowledge that the world is an amoral place, and that there really are no rules except "survival of the fittest" type "rules." Unfortunately, though they preach a LOT about individuality and non conformity, the bulk of LaVeyan Satanists dress a lot like the man who started the whole thing. LaVey himself comments on this kind of phenomenon in an interview ( found here: http://www.churchofsatan.com/interview- ... ragedy.php) that he's "created a monster."

Nowadays there's the Satanic Temple, which doesn't really have any "Satanic" ideologies in my opinions, but they're publicly doing much more in the name of Satan, which is kind of ironic.

[John]

From an Order of 9 Angles website:

The O9A code of kindred honour means that O9A folk – whether they describe themselves as satanists or not – treat their O9A brothers and sisters in one way (with honour and civility) and mundanes in an entirely different (and sometimes condescending) way, with adult mundanes of sound body and mind {2} being regarded as potential dupes (marks, muppets), as potential opfers, and as a potential useful resource.

:whateva: ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... ....................... .......................

My point is they're all either very deluded, very dysfunctional, or very manipulative people. Anyone that hung up on being "bad" or spooky or whatever is more concerned with their image or with exploiting others to do much in the way of the Great Work.

I'm all for making fundamentalist Xtians uncomfortable, and I definitely support statues of Baphomet in public places, but Satanism as a whole is only marginally more realistic than anything else.

The only true mystical experiences are those which occur in the individual. Once it passes through others it is either distilled or adulterated. Real shamans know this.

[rfurtkamp]

The Baphomet statue people are doing actual occult practitioners a giant disservice - they've adopted the mantle for their own ends, and admit they don't believe in any of it in the slightest.

It just perpetuates the "acting out kids" stereotype that is all to often real.

And yea, the Work is not something one does in groups or requires a wardrobe or publishing.

For a beginner these days, I usually just suggest the TOPY Grey Book - if the technology works, then look for philosophical underpinnings and things to attach to it and make it work for the individual. Very much sink or swim but it's fundamentally no different than the decision to take a psychedelic drug for the first time - there is a line, and if it's crossed, bad things can sometimes (and even often) happen.

Also the reason I always mention "what are you looking for" in these types of inquiries is that this sort of work is disruptive in a practical sense. Normal family, normal relationships, normal existence with day to day things, they don't really go hand in hand with it - not saying that some of that can't come in time but it's very much lighting oneself up like the phoenix and praying for the best result.

[John]

Also the reason I always mention "what are you looking for" in these types of inquiries is that this sort of work is disruptive in a practical sense. Normal family, normal relationships, normal existence with day to day things, they don't really go hand in hand with it - not saying that some of that can't come in time but it's very much lighting oneself up like the phoenix and praying for the best result.

True. In my pursuit of personal development in the realm of practical pursuits (school, career, domestic stability) I have had to let esoterica go for the most part, and just inject it into my music when needed. Wizardry is something I'm saving for my retirement. I've lived long enough in the abstract, not to mention I find more empowerment in achieving my desires through traditional methods. Anything I want that badly is either best achieved through direct effort or abandoned as a needless desire.

[rfurtkamp]

Yea, if you can obtain them through normal means, then that is the most direct and safest route with the most realistically successful outcome.

My own practice hasn't ever been something I could put off - it was a trainwreck of even more epic proportions when I tried to, like Butch and Sundance, go straight a couple times.

But there were a couple years there where I was not safe to anyone or anything around, destroying a universe and rebuilding it one thing at a time is not pretty to the outside observer either.

Last couple years I lived with my partner there were times I was concerned for her safety (not from my own stability or lack thereof, as those days were LONG past) as workings I was doing were spilling out into all aspects of things around me.

[Derelict78]

Ok, so here are some books that I wish I had read as soon as I became interested in the "occult"
Liber Null and Psychonaut by Peter J. Carroll
Liber ABA (book 4) Majick by Aleister Crowley
The book of Thoth by Aleister Crowley

The book of Thoth is probably by favorite and IMO a work of genius.

[gunslinger_burrito]

From an Order of 9 Angles website:

The O9A code of kindred honour means that O9A folk – whether they describe themselves as satanists or not – treat their O9A brothers and sisters in one way (with honour and civility) and mundanes in an entirely different (and sometimes condescending) way, with adult mundanes of sound body and mind {2} being regarded as potential dupes (marks, muppets), as potential opfers, and as a potential useful resource.

My point is they're all either very deluded, very dysfunctional, or very manipulative people. Anyone that hung up on being "bad" or spooky or whatever is more concerned with their image or with exploiting others to do much in the way of the Great Work.

I'm all for making fundamentalist Xtians uncomfortable, and I definitely support statues of Baphomet in public places, but Satanism as a whole is only marginally more realistic than anything else.

The only true mystical experiences are those which occur in the individual. Once it passes through others it is either distilled or adulterated. Real shamans know this.

I agree wholeheartedly.

There's definitely a LOT I've taken from LaVey's works, enough that I would not be who I am today without it. Mostly the stuff about viewing the world without filters, and learning not to deceive yourself, as well as accept yourself as you are. I think that 90% of so-called "LaVeyan Satanists" miss the mark in huge ways. If Satan is supposed to represent some kind of antithesis to pop-culture, then dressing like all kinds of goth cliches and acting "spooky" as you so well put it isn't doing the trick. That's why it's become cliche. There's nothing shocking or counterculture or rebellious in the slightest about fitting yourself into cliches that allow you to safely feel like you're breaking taboos or rebelling in any way. That's why I always say that the core of what he wrote (well, most of it....) is solid, but desperately needs someone to apply it to modern times.

If you look at the meaning(s) of Left Hand Path and Right Hand Path, then it's fairly simple to come to the conclusion that the Left-Handers will almost always be the ones to help society progress, as they operate outside of the current paradigm of what's acceptable, feasible, and normal. It's fine and all to live like every day is Halloween if you want to, but self-deceit is highly frowned upon in LaVey's mode of thought, and you're a dumbass to think that you're creeping out the world around you unless you live in a reeeaaallly backwoods, conservative area or something.

Really, the whole thing can be likened to how Tool is considered philosophical and Maynard often sings about the stupidity of the world, but there are sooooo many Tool fans that are complete fucking idiots.

My own practice mostly revolves around personalized rituals utilizing symbolism that strikes a chord with me, in an attempt to change my personality for the better. I'd like to explore the parts of my psyche/unconscious that give me so much trouble on a daily basis, so I can learn to change them for the better. To this end, I'm finding that a lot of the aforementioned Vama Marga Tantra helps me a lot. A lot of those practices focus on breaking taboos so you can see the truth behind everything. Even thinking about breaking the taboos I'm finding in my own head makes me feels a lot more free and relaxed on a day to day basis. I don't actually believe that there are any of these gods out there, but they are phenomenal symbols for working with the unconscious, as they are all representations of archetypes and so on.

If it works, use it. If it doesn't produce results, then don't use it. Try something else.

[John]

I don't actually believe that there are any of these gods out there, but they are phenomenal symbols for working with the unconscious, as they are all representations of archetypes and so on.

If it works, use it. If it doesn't produce results, then don't use it. Try something else.

Troot.

For myself, I think there are very few archetypes that hold much weight in my mind, and it would take more energy to implant new ones than I could get out of it by drawing upon them once they're in there. That doesn't mean I don't need new mythologies to be inspired by, but I'm not going to only go backwards in time to find them.

[rfurtkamp]

I wish I could say that none of them were "real", that it was all in my head.

Experience tells me otherwise.

I can make anything work,but some things don't just work, they're real with a capital R.

[echoraven]

...I don't know how other people will or do interpret this, but in my experience and honest opinion, there's nothing supernatural going on. If there was, it would be another quantifiable field of study. All the best fields of the occult, in my current interpretation, act as sorts of psychological heuristics. The same processes can be found in all shapes and forms, but the outward appearance or symbol of the process can vary...

Personally I would not call it "supernatural" but beyond the ability of most people to perceive.

I get NASA feed on my facebook and alot of times they take radio signals and shove it into a masturbating computer that spits out an image. What the radio signals pick up is not colors we can see, so the computer reinterprets them so we CAN see them. I'm sure everyone here knows there are frequencies we cannot hear.

I think "supernatural" falls along those lines. Things that happen and are beyond our (current) ability to perceive and study.

[gunslinger_burrito]

Necro-bumping this one again

Besides the aforementioned TOPY Grey Book and the big ones by Crowely (specifically the Book of Thoth) what are some legit readings for chaos/sigil magic? I've found that it works for me and helps a ton with some life crap I've been dealing with lately. I'm mostly curious if there are ideas or elaborations I haven't come across yet in Spare's stuff and the smatterings of things I've read around the internet. I want to pick up a good book but there's so much BS out there. TOPY stuff then?

[rfurtkamp]

Going to be honest, past the basic technique there's not much to it. What TOPY lacks, as much as I love it, is the philosophical grounding or spiritual development of other systems - but at the same time it's not really supposed to do that. All it does is present "this is a hammer, find some nails, and figure it out for what you need to do."

It's perhaps why it's dangerous in practice (I say this after watching people burn out in spades over the last twenty-something years, but the diamonds that don't drown in the pool are rare and precious indeed), but at the same time it's useful in that it doesn't tie the working to any particular work and leaves that up to the individual.

If you're going to explore the TOPY backend, look at Burroughs and Gysin, but even those aren't *necessary* - it stands on its own, even if you reject the entirety of everything surrounding it.

Crowley I wouldn't go with Thoth per se, it's very, very useful but it's not intended as a starter work by any stretch. If I was going to go for "not horribly dumbed down", Regardie's "Tree of Life" is as dense a summary of the materials as can be found that doesn't miss a whole lot even if he's moralistic in sections, and I'd couple that with "Magick Without Tears", which while incomplete due to the lack of the other half of the letters and the posthumous editing, is about as good an introduction to Crowley the Dude as exists. And an understanding of that dude is vital to understanding his more dense works IMO.

The big caution I can give is that most modern writers on the man have been bamboozled either by oaths (where they won't go into some areas because they can't find a way around it, which tells me they probably don't grasp the system) or the pervasive nature of the bad generation of bootlegs out since King's "Secret Rituals" - which are fascinating in their editing versus the source material, where they remove each and every reference to any feminine aspect of things in a way that still makes me ponder motive.

It's a deep rabbit hole you're going down to in either case though, to really get the broad picture for either TOPY or Spare you need to dig deep and long, and by comparison, Crowley is an impenetrable wall of insanity that requires a level of education most people didn't have then, and even fewer have now. And in Crowley's case, it's a hundred years old or more in some cases, and reflects a VERY different time and attitudes, and to understand him, you have to know men of his time and thought so it's not just 'read it and get it.'