McSpunckle wrote:Someone's going to have to explain a couple of things to me.
The words "socialist" and "anarchist" are being used interchangeably. They're not even sort of the same thing.
The "nobody cares what 50 socialists say" comment... where did that number come from? There were over 1000 people protesting. It just doesn't get a lot of coverage because, frankly, the media doesn't give a shit about liberals.
And finally, how is it OK to just mace a group of people? t's not like one person tried to get through and they got her-- the dude maced a whole group. He even got a couple of the cops, and the cops looked confused. A couple of the protesters were very obviously just standing there. They weren't preventing the cops from "doing their jobs." At worse they were yelling at them.
The actual definitions aren't that important. You can say protester for all the difference it makes. And a thousand ain't much more than 50 in a country with 330 million.
And no one's defending the dude who maced the group.
both "socialists" and "anarchists" were present, as noted in other Net coverage. "over 1000 people" is about the number of people who stand around outside a medium-sized concert venue in NYC. and according to the video there were several, probably four or five, people who pushed the line with at least three behind them with cameras and videocams intending to follow. you're assuming that the video is a discrete incident when it seems apparent that this is the end of a longer incident requiring the cops to use the net barricade along the curb to block them in--you can see how it's had to be stretched around the street-sign pole at center of the curb line--at the end of which one of the white-shirts, who is probably authorized to use mace as different to the beat cops in blue, is called in. when you create an incident, there you are in the incident. if you do things when you protest that you know are going to get you maced, well, there you go. when i demonstrated, i knew i could get my head cracked, and i always used to go up to the mysterious plainclothes guys taking pictures of everyone and pose, since i figured i was gonna be in the files anyway.
that's the really irritating thing about modern progressives: the people who made the great strides for human rights and dignity had to fight and die for their causes; modern youth think they should just get what they want because they yell a bit. MOMMY! THEY MACED ME! IT'S NOT FAAAAAAAAAAAIR! listen: they don't just have Mace. they have BIG FUCKING GUNS, OK? and clubs, and prisons, and fucking tanks. and in much of the developed world they really aren't shy about using them. ever seen how they clear out a riot in Germany, or the Netherlands? provoking people to use them is not a wise move, especially as nation-states in general become more centralized and authoritarian. playing in the streets as a fringe group won't change the world. HARD WORK will change the world. find arguments that will convince people who aren't already on your side, and which don't depend on simply demonizing the other side; propound them successfully. the USA is and has been for decades a center-right nation; most of the other Anglophone-European nations are lately trending likewise. if you want it to be different, make the case. i mean really make the case, not just try to sneak it by under cover of "i'm a moderate" like the Democratic Party keeps trying to do.
In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
FIFTY YEARS OF SCARING THE CHILDREN 1970-2020--and i'm not done yet
McSpunckle wrote:And finally, how is it OK to just mace a group of people?
Is it ok for cops to make people in parked cars roll down their windows only to shoot pepper spray into the car? That is what they did during WTO in Seattle. Won' even get into the shit they did to actual protesters.
and yeah, macing those folks sucks. but out of the available police options, it may have been the least extreme available. the cops were acting to enforce the law by keeping them and their compatriots from blocking the street, so the protestors didn't have the legal right to do what they were trying to do. they couldn't devote ten or more cops to keeping that small group out of the street indefinitely, so they were going to have to be arrested. the demonstrators clearly weren't cooperating, and unless they did the go-limp thing, they'd probably have to have been individually tackled, restrained and handcuffed, which would have been much more violent; Tased, which is another step more dangerous because of the high-voltage current; or given the classic model Chicago 1968 billyclub beat-down. i'd take a shot of Mace over having my face ground into the New York asphalt.
In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
FIFTY YEARS OF SCARING THE CHILDREN 1970-2020--and i'm not done yet
Bellyheart wrote:As the fucking scum doesn't have the legal right to decide our fate because of the amount of wealth they've obtained.
Yep. THAT seems to go for Your both major political parties and the others seems to be a joke. And that's basically why people don't vote for change either when they should, in addition to (hopefully relatively peaceful) direct action.
The people living in the penthouses haven't got a fucking glue of the smell of the gutter, and they are determined to keep it that way. They've got both the political power and the money, and surrounding infrastructure to uphold that. When Obama wants to reform the economy and politics, raise the taxes of the 1% and build a stronger public sector for the rest, the elite raises against him from both the Democrats and the Republicans and I strongly doubt he gets re-elected.
:::: Metal up Yöur Jazz! with FUZZIFERblack psychedelic doom ::::
Ugly Nora wrote:It's a sad day when Bassus Sanguinis becomes the voice of reason.
well, if you want to keep jumping in cops' faces and then yelling "HELP, I'M BEING OPPRESSED!" go on ahead. i'm just pointing out that people have been doing it since 1980, and as a tactic it demonstrably doesn't work. there's no way around it; if you want to change shit, you're going to have to do stuff that's not fun, and doesn't give you the ego charge of Being Absolutely Right or the thrill of fighting cops and breaking shit. you're going to have to organize more than a ragtag group of people who show up, make some racket, and then split. you're going to need clear, coherent goals to work towards, not hazy crap about "building a sustainable future." and you're going to have to learn to talk to and convince people who aren't like you at all, and who don't even like you and conversely you don't like. otherwise you're never going to get out of the 2% ghetto. "Occupying Wall Street" is counterproductive to your cause; it's boring old hat to the demonstrator crowd (like i said above, people have been doing these actions for 30 years to no effect) and disliked/despised by everyone else. stop blocking the sidewalks; start hitting them and convincing the people you're going to need to make a majority. give me arguments i can't shoot holes in; this stuff is just jerking off in public.
In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
FIFTY YEARS OF SCARING THE CHILDREN 1970-2020--and i'm not done yet
dubkitty wrote:well, if you want to keep jumping in cops' faces and then yelling "HELP, I'M BEING OPPRESSED!" go on ahead. i'm just pointing out that people have been doing it since 1980, and as a tactic it demonstrably doesn't work. there's no way around it; if you want to change shit, you're going to have to do stuff that's not fun, and doesn't give you the ego charge of Being Absolutely Right or the thrill of fighting cops and breaking shit. you're going to have to organize more than a ragtag group of people who show up, make some racket, and then split. you're going to need clear, coherent goals to work towards, not hazy crap about "building a sustainable future." and you're going to have to learn to talk to and convince people who aren't like you at all, and who don't even like you and conversely you don't like. otherwise you're never going to get out of the 2% ghetto. "Occupying Wall Street" is counterproductive to your cause; it's boring old hat to the demonstrator crowd (like i said above, people have been doing these actions for 30 years to no effect) and disliked/despised by everyone else. stop blocking the sidewalks; start hitting them and convincing the people you're going to need to make a majority. give me arguments i can't shoot holes in; this stuff is just jerking off in public.
I really think that the cops macing people is beside the point. What excites me about this isn't police oppression but me realizing that the peasant masses are beginning to wake and realize that the status quo and laissez-faire attitude our government takes with big business is ineffectual and intolerable. More and More people are realizing that we the citizens have no control over our government even though we are supposed to be the government. People are waking up to the fact that we live in a corporate controlled plutocracy cleverly disguised and propagandized as a democracy.
Will these protests effect any sort of change? That remains to be seen and I'm inclined to think that it's a very small step on a long road to meaningful reform. Will more and more people begin to be enlightened that we live in an illusioned society and realize that our money and how they use it is their (and conversely our) best weapon? I think so.
We cannot allow these corporations to reform America into a Neo-Feudalistic state.
Last edited by warwick.hoy on Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
it's a start. it should evolve tho. but also a note to people who want the matter to be more concrete. -go out there, see the people with your own eyes. talk to them. if you have ideas, share, they'll welcome it. you too can be a catalyst to change. one person can make a difference. example: http://www.mycharitywater.org/p/campaig ... n_id=16396
even though I support the 'occupation', I'm not sure if it's right. but I'm looking from a standpoint where a personal revolution is the only revolution that changes something in reality. this is just fighting illusions again, running after windmills and playing their game. what's real? what's right? I don't really know anymore from where I'm standing.
rfurtkamp wrote:Bastard stepchild of modern delay times/looping and a Lexicon Vortex would have me whipping out the credit card faster than a hooker at a coke convention.
All we ever consume is flat pack furniture and planned obsolescence consumer electronics made by underpaid outsourced workers,...sold by underpaid, non-knowledgeable employees at rock bottom prices. Disposable Shit that will fall apart in 6 months. Cookie cutter homes that I question will still be standing long enough to have their mortgages paid off. There will be no antiques from the 1990's on. It will all have disintegrated, meanwhile goods made by local artisans from the 18th and 19th century will continue to exist. There is no pride in craftsmanship,...because we are too impatient to wait, or save for something like that.
How about next time you think you need the latest version of the iPad,..you drop the $800 on a piece of furniture,...quality made with pride by a local artisan in his garage trying to put food on the table for his family. Something that you can pass on to your kids,...and they can pass on to their kids,...
How about next time you think you need to go to Walmart to pick $100 worth of Mexican grown produce,...you go to the local farmers market and support the farm just outside of town or better yet,...grow your own food (like we have time for that since both parents are stuck in dead end jobs so they can afford the SUV payment + putting gas in it). Can what you don't intend to use for the wintertime.
We have become a nation of mixed up priorities. We need both parents in the workforce to pay for their half million dollar homes and their gas guzzling SUVs with 22 inch chrome drug dealer wheels (probably parked next to their Mercedes with matching rims,...none of which they can actually afford) and god dammit,...if you don't have that, plus a boat plus matching jetskis plus botox, liposuction, gym membership, tanning salon membership, housekeeper, nanny (someone has got to raise the kids,...of course you could just plunk them down in front of the 60 in Plasma Screen)..well you just aren't successful (whatever that is).
We've been brought up to believe that opulence is the only thing that makes us who we are. We've been duped into a nation of consumers by the Corpo/Politico/Media. What are are going to do when there is nothing left to consume? We cannot continue on like this.
We need to support local communities, local agriculture and local economies. We need to redefine our niches as craftsman and tradesman as opposed to Fast Food Workers for the peseantry and Number crunchers for the elite. We need to stop the mass consumption of resources. We need to demand that the government return to providing services and policy for the citizens not the corporations. We need to stop treating corporations as citizens.
rfurtkamp wrote:Bastard stepchild of modern delay times/looping and a Lexicon Vortex would have me whipping out the credit card faster than a hooker at a coke convention.
rfurtkamp wrote:Bastard stepchild of modern delay times/looping and a Lexicon Vortex would have me whipping out the credit card faster than a hooker at a coke convention.
and I strongly doubt he gets re-elected.
