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I think that Magick can be explained with science. I also think Magick is a physical thing. its more than how something makes me feel but even than my feelings are a physical thing ie. chemicals being released in my brain. This of course is all speculation. The beauty I find in Thelema is the core "Do what thou wilt". Its not about dogma or what is "right" or "wrong" its about finding YOUR will and doing nothing but that.

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gunslinger_burrito wrote:you guys are being so secretive and occult-like.......

ag laiad, Ananael

Science is kinda not limited to anything, it's a principle.

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ditto.

Science isn't necessarily limited to the physical. Science is a process/method. It doesn't explain anything. It's the process by which we make testable hypotheses, and then, well, test them. So if anything, science is only limited by what is testable and reproducible. It doesn't have to be physical phenomena, science can be used to test spiritual phenomena. If they are real, then they can be predicted and reproduced. If they can't be predicted and reproduced, then the scientific method say that the hypothesis should be discarded. That's all it says.

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yeah but its Wikipedia. Look science up in the dictionary.

ninnghizidda wrote:Straight from Wikipedia: In modern use, "science" more often refers to a way of pursuing knowledge, not only the knowledge itself.

This agrees completely with what I said. Science is a process, not a field of knowledge.

ninnghizidda wrote:It is "often treated as synonymous with 'natural and physical science', and thus restricted to those branches of study that relate to the phenomena of the material universe and their laws, sometimes with implied exclusion of pure mathematics.

I completely disagree with this sentence. As a matter of fact, it directly contradicts the previous sentence. There is no reason that you can't apply the scientific method to paranormal, supernatural and spiritual phenomena. The only reason why it is "often treated as synonymous with 'natural and physical science'" is because those are the only areas that have produced predictable and repeatable results so far. If someone can create a predictable and falsifiable hypothesis in the spiritual field, then you can certainly use the scientific method to test it. And if the test fails to produce results, then you must modify or discard the hypothesis.

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ninnghizidda wrote:Could somebody explain how the scientific community, with all its methods and techniques, could objectify a subjective experience?

It can't, and I hope I didn't imply that it could. All I said is that there is no reason I can think of why the scientific method couldn't be used to test a hypothesis relating to spiritual or supernatural phenomena. However, it has to test something that is falsifiable and has a measurable result. A subjective experience, by definition is not falsifiable or measurable. I guess I didn't realize that you were specifically referring to subjective experiences. I was more referring to things that produce a tangible, measureable result (e.g. telekinesis, physical appearance of ghosts, prayer leading to specific result, etc etc)

bigchiefbc wrote:However, it has to test something that is falsifiable and has a measurable result. A subjective experience, by definition is not falsifiable or measurable.

Not with thinking that caused the state to begin with, no. But it is possible. A person has to be his own scientist, let's say. What Buddha did basically.

alexa. wrote:

bigchiefbc wrote:However, it has to test something that is falsifiable and has a measurable result. A subjective experience, by definition is not falsifiable or measurable.

Not with thinking that caused the state to begin with, no. But it is possible. A person has to be his own scientist, let's say. What Buddha did basically.

Careful there. That sounds like you're just making up your own meanings to suit your own needs. There's hardly anything scientific about Buddha. Did he, at some point, say, "I'm going to test this theory of enlightenment by meditating for a while?" Nope.

It's worth mentioning here, If I didn't already somewhere back in the thread, that it's being shown in laboratory studies that our brains make emotional decisions before we make "logical" ones. We basically try to rationalize our feelings about something, even if it leads us in illogical circles.

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