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vidret wrote:

ritz wrote:I always err on the side of believing the accuser, unless there is some *drastic* reason for reasonable doubt. Because it often seems that the entire culture I live in tends to do the opposite.

really? i try hard not to take sides, but it feels very much like someone can accuse and everyone picks it up and now that person is an "alleged rapist" or what have you, and if it's not proven/disproven then that person will always be an alleged rapist, which is fucked up as well.

Seems to me like someone is already "alleged" as soon as the accusation is made. Accusers are routinely shamed, doubted, mocked and harassed to a ridiculous degree. So much so that it makes it seem extremely unlikely to me that there is any really great percentage of people going around making false accusations for ulterior motive. I think you would have to be literally crazy to bring down on yourself the shit that accusers face just to fuck with someone by making a false accusation. And a lot of accusers are fully aware of the shitstorm that they will be bringing down on themselves.

So yeah, I chose to believe accusers. It's not like my belief actually matters either way, but it feels right to me. Maybe that makes me wrong 1 time in 10? 1 in 50? Versus routinely choosing to disbelieve? No thanks.

I also try to see complexity and nuance in these situations. I believe that a victim can honestly believe that they were raped, and the rapist can honestly believe that they did not rape, and they are having vastly different subjective experiences of the same complicated incident, but someone doesn't have to believe that they were a rapist in order to make it legitimately rape for the victim. This shit is complicated.

Understand that I am approaching this in the abstract. Don't know any of the people involved, etc.

Spaceritual, your confidence in Gira is pretty comforting. I sincerely hope this whole thing is squashed pretty soon. On the upside, if people somehow still take Grimm's side, there should be a whole bunch of Swans records going up for sale for cheap soon

Olin wrote:On the upside, if people somehow still take Grimm's side, there should be a whole bunch of Swans records going up for sale for cheap soon

I HEARD THAT SHIT

vidret wrote:
just to preface, i'm not saying i routinely believe the accused OR the accuser, I was just taken by the fact that you routinely believe the accuser.


I agree with what you're saying, but let's remember the fact that a lot of people actually are crazy. So. Yeah I don't know either way.

Yeah

I don't mean I *actively with lots of certainty* believe. There is not a lot of deep conviction there. I'm just more likely to be like "yeah that person was probably raped" than "yeah they must be making that up"

Rape sucks

D.o.S. wrote:I would assume that there are other factors influencing the release of that material (legal advice, perhaps?)

Michael said he won't be saying more until he's been advised on how to approach this by his lawyer, so I think that's right.

People want simple answers and black and white options. People often either take the side of the accuser immediately, condemning the accused, or people rally with the accused and slam the accuser. It's just plain sad all around; how people do that.

This is pure speculation but I find it interesting that after Gira and his wife made some responses - see the time lines in the second link in the OP - Grimm seems to not want to deal with Gira and hi's wife's responses, but to just talk about rape culture. Like she used initial allegation as a platform for addressing a larger issue, and that now the initial allegation isn't really important, as if to say; "it's not about me, its about all the women that suffer."

Yeah. I was reading thru the comments on Swans' fb about this, and I can't even think of something to say here. I get it that they don't want to believe that Gira (or anyone they like for whatever reason) could rape someone, I don't want to either, but at least try to behave like a decent person instead of spouting off about how horrible the accuser must be. The situation is sad all around here, and a witch hunt isn't the way to approach it. The same goes for people that are willing to immediately demonize Gira, or anyone accused of something like this.

Sexual assualt doesnt necessarily begin and end at forced penetration. Gira's just released a statement saying they had a weird awkward sexual experience and his idea of what he thought it was (on my phone, can't link).

I mean I read it as oblivious to coercion and how power relationships work but thats my own bias with these things.

http://www.factmag.com/2016/02/27/micha ... ccusation/ here it is

**trigger warning**

Wait, so like, were they both completely drunk?

I have to say I am really disappointed in how people are framing sexual assault in this conversation. False accusations account for around 1% of all allegations. That is a tiny number.

On the other side of things, between 20 and 30% of women have been sexually assaulted, which means that plenty of the men we know and love are rapists and abusers.

not presuming that you're not accurate, but source?

aens_wife wrote:I have to say I am really disappointed in how people are framing sexual assault in this conversation. False accusations account for around 1% of all allegations. That is a tiny number.

On the other side of things, between 20 and 30% of women have been sexually assaulted, which means that plenty of the men we know and love are rapists and abusers.

Even if it is 1%, that is still a person who's guilt should be determined by facts and not just allegations alone. For sure many women experience sexual assault, and for sure there are people - men, in particular - that automatically antagonize/blame the accuser, which isn't right. I'm advocating for no prejudgments towards either party, and waiting (innocent till proven guilty) for the evidence to come out, if there is any. If there isn't, are people supposed to take a side based on their gut/whom they like better? Or go by the statistic you stated, and just assume since there are a lot of women that are sexually assaulted and a very small percentage of accusations of rape are false that Gira should be assumed guilty? I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just trying to figure out how that should work.

Faldoe wrote:

aens_wife wrote:I have to say I am really disappointed in how people are framing sexual assault in this conversation. False accusations account for around 1% of all allegations. That is a tiny number.

On the other side of things, between 20 and 30% of women have been sexually assaulted, which means that plenty of the men we know and love are rapists and abusers.

Even if it is 1%, that is still a person who's guilt should be determined by facts and not just allegations alone. For sure many women experience sexual assault, and for sure there are people - men, in particular - that automatically antagonize/blame the accuser, which isn't right. I'd advocating for no prejudgments towards either party, and waiting (innocent till proven guilty) for the evidence to come out, if there is any. If there isn't, are people just supposed to take a side? Or go by the statistic you stated, and just assume since there are a lot of women that are sexually assaulted and a very small percentage of accusations of rape are false that Gira should be assumed guilty?

omg. This is what I am talking about. if 20% of the women you know have been assaulted, are you really going to doubt your girlfriend or daughter when she comes home and tells you this happened.

Just because you appreciate this guys music, doesn't mean he isn't a shithead.

The framing of this conversation is why women don't report. I can't think of the benefit for her, career wise. He has die hard followers. She is going to be the drunk slut who accused the rock god from Swans for the rest of her career.

The biggest benefit of coming forward is to push the discussion publicly and hopefully to make the world a safer, better place for women. I don't understand how people can discuss this like it isn't possible that she had said no for years, then was passed out from drinking, and woke up with him on top of her. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

Anyway. I am done discussing this now. I have said my piece and you guys can continue to ignore the health and safety of the women around you some more.