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repoman wrote:

snipelfritz wrote:
One of the major criticisms I hear of PC-culture is that (paraphrase ahoy!) "people just want to see/create problems, so by complaining about it, they feel better about themselves."

It seems bizarrely ironic.

I don't understand how that is ironic? Do you mean by complaining about SJW types people are giving undue credit or recognition to people that shouldn't be acknowledged in the first place?

Personally, I think many of these issues are very much rooted in narcissism, where the crusader feels the need for a cause to pursue for personal acknowledgement, ego boosting or now, acceptance from the status quo. They are generally narcissistic in nature because they are all very 'safe' pursuits and many times are rather navel gazing-ish.

'No good deed goes unpunished' is especially true in political ideology/policy.

t-rey wrote:

Invisible Man wrote:LONG POST FULL OF WIN.

Well said. I absolutely agree with point about offendedness being an indicator of privilege. My general feeling is that this culture of offence/PC culture thing going on now was all but absent when I was in college, and that was less than 10 years ago. So, do you view this as a sign of increasing disparity of wealth and more people of privilege getting uppity about shit, or is it just getting more attention than it used to?

repoman wrote: I don't understand how that is ironic? Do you mean by complaining about SJW types people are giving undue credit or recognition to people that shouldn't be acknowledged in the first place?

Personally, I think many of these issues are very much rooted in narcissism, where the crusader feels the need for a cause to pursue for personal acknowledgement, ego boosting or now, acceptance from the status quo. They are generally narcissistic in nature because they are all very 'safe' pursuits and many times are rather navel gazing-ish.

'No good deed goes unpunished' is especially true in political ideology/policy.

This is the stance I tend to take on the issue as well. People are quick to trumpet their offence of this thing or that, or support of whatever cause, but most of the time it feels like they are doing it for attention. Their difficulty accepting, recognizing, or respecting an opposing view is also kind of indicative of narcissism, isn't it?

Chris Hedges talks about the "cult of self" which is very relevant here and brings up something regarding what you both said.

A lot of these younger people - current college attendees, grew up more immersed in the technology boom and social media extravaganza. That coupled with an already existing societal MO of hyper-individualism and being known, being a star, I think a lot of people are acting out of a sense of wanting to be known. This can be mixed with a real/genuine desire to "make a difference" some how in the world but they often act out of, or fueled by, reaction. They aren't necessarily thinking critically or examining themselves internally and thus often end of projecting.

Yep.

I still need to watch that series.

I think jwar explained it quite simply: Is the person you're being offended at actively trying to offend you? If not, why would you make a big deal out of it? One time, I answered this dude I know with a yo mama-joke, because it was such a great opportunity. Turns out his mother was dead. Does that make me a dick? Dude didn't mind, and calmly explained the situation. I never pulled yo mama-jokes on him again, but I still do on other people. Point being, this semi-witch hunt on ordinary people with the "wrong" opinions in working against the perceived goal of equality. Let everyone speak their mind, cencoriship leads nowhere.

I mean, I just try really hard to respect everyone, both in real life and online. You never know what will be a random issue for people. I have a button with a picture of my kid on my apron at work. Some rando lady blew up at me because she can't have kids. I just Tried to comfort her and tell her that's sad and stuff. I don't even know where I'm going with this. The most of us do a decent job living in the middle. The people freaking on both extremes always coming out looking silly, and there is usually a little decent conversation on a valid topic generated in the middle of a lot of craziness.

She probably does have kids. They're just really ugly.

Faldoe wrote:The "SJW to pickup chicks" thing reminds me of Dennis and Mac in that abortion rally episode of Its Always Sunny...

I definitely had that in mind.

Everyone comes at everything from a bias. From my experience, SJws are just a joke on the internet while people using "too PC" to mask their genuinely bigoted beliefs (which they 99% of the time don't realize are bigoted) is more of a reality to me. The "if blacks can say n******, then why can't I?" thing always permeates my thoughts on the subject. But that's simply my experience. Like I said before, I come from the other half of the generation which enjoys the nasty for both comical and intellectual purpose.

PeteeBee wrote:I mean, I just try really hard to respect everyone, both in real life and online. You never know what will be a random issue for people. I have a button with a picture of my kid on my apron at work. Some rando lady blew up at me because she can't have kids. I just Tried to comfort her and tell her that's sad and stuff. I don't even know where I'm going with this. The most of us do a decent job living in the middle. The people freaking on both extremes always coming out looking silly, and there is usually a little decent conversation on a valid topic generated in the middle of a lot of craziness.

Unfortunately, the crazies get plenty of news coverage, so we end up discussing it on the internets. 24 hour news cycle'd

Eivind August wrote:I think jwar explained it quite simply: Is the person you're being offended at actively trying to offend you? If not, why would you make a big deal out of it? One time, I answered this dude I know with a yo mama-joke, because it was such a great opportunity. Turns out his mother was dead. Does that make me a dick? Dude didn't mind, and calmly explained the situation. I never pulled yo mama-jokes on him again, but I still do on other people. Point being, this semi-witch hunt on ordinary people with the "wrong" opinions in working against the perceived goal of equality. Let everyone speak their mind, cencoriship leads nowhere.

OMG I hate it when the yo momma jokes go that way. It's actually happened to me several times. Makes you feel awful, but at the same times it's such a natural thing to say. It's meant to be lighthearted and funny, not really offensive.

I agree with what you've said. Censorship is stupid.

Eivind August wrote:I think jwar explained it quite simply: Is the person you're being offended at actively trying to offend you? If not, why would you make a big deal out of it? One time, I answered this dude I know with a yo mama-joke, because it was such a great opportunity. Turns out his mother was dead. Does that make me a dick? Dude didn't mind, and calmly explained the situation. I never pulled yo mama-jokes on him again, but I still do on other people. Point being, this semi-witch hunt on ordinary people with the "wrong" opinions in working against the perceived goal of equality. Let everyone speak their mind, cencoriship leads nowhere.

That is an interesting point. My mom is dead and I think I'd still have a little bit of reaction to it, internally but not to the person making the joke, especially if they don't know men, and thus know she is dead. I think it would be dumb to blow up on someone about that. Like with the lady blowing up at PeteeBee for his button.

t-rey wrote:Well said. I absolutely agree with point about offendedness being an indicator of privilege. My general feeling is that this culture of offence/PC culture thing going on now was all but absent when I was in college, and that was less than 10 years ago. So, do you view this as a sign of increasing disparity of wealth and more people of privilege getting uppity about shit, or is it just getting more attention than it used to?

I think it is the first one. It is not getting any more attention, as far as I can see, than it ever has (which is far too little, of course). But the gap between we poor plebeian commonfolk and the monocle-wearing Monopoly (tm) men and women at the top of the food chain has been widening at a pace that is literally difficult to comprehend. What's happening here, at some level, feels like a symptom of an economic problem.

It's hard to fully articulate what I want to say here...but perhaps anecdotes are useful.

Again, on race: "Reverse racism" came up in a class--that's another popular myth that needs debunking. Racism is institutional; it's a condition of power. Most people mistake prejudice or discrimination for racism. If you're white, you can't experience racism. It isn't just being ostracized for looking different than everyone around you; it's walking into Target knowing that you won't find Band-Aids (tm) that match your skin color, or being asked to "speak for your race," or having to wonder if every slight against you is somehow racially inflected. If you experience racism, it means that the world is not built for you.

Making students understand this sort of thing is incredibly difficult unless they've lived it. They'll say "no, I work at a restaurant with tons of Mexicans, and they treat me differently. I have experienced racism." And, to get back on point, they get offended when I tell them that they're wrong.

The long and short of it is that everyone wants to lay claim to having suffered. I think that this is one of the roots of the SJW trend, and the intensity with which some people pursue it. They're trying to prove something rather than to fix something. If you've really been through some shit, you know better than to poke your nose into someone else's problem trying to fix their environment. That's a rich person-deal; there's always implied benevolence or condescension in this act. What's batshit crazy about this, and what I think might be the problem at the heart of this thread, is that:

offendedness=privilege
privilege=pretending to be poor to prove something (at least it often does)
appearance of poverty=utter bullshit, insincere pandering, disrespect to people who have it rough
disingenuousness=hurting the people you propose to "help" with your SJW persona that you will drop when the time comes

God damn it, I'm ranting again. Two more points:

1) I know a guy who makes every attempt to play the gutter punk card. Both of his parents are well-respected physicians; he doesn't really work. But his politics are bankrolled, as is his "punk lifestyle," which is such a shitty phrase that I get angry just typing it;
2) Long-dead Italian Communist Antonio Gramsci writes at length about the Organic Intellectual. These are people that are produced by shitty places who then rise up, educate themselves, and return to those places to apply their experience and intellect to do real good where it is needed, and in ways that no one else could provide (because no one else is from there, or wants to go back). And that explains why I live in Flint, America's murder capital.

Fuck, I'm an angry person. This is how my classes at university go...there's nowhere else I could get away with this shit.

Invisible Man wrote: 1) I know a guy who makes every attempt to play the gutter punk card. Both of his parents are well-respected physicians; he doesn't really work. But his politics are bankrolled, as is his "punk lifestyle," which is such a shitty phrase that I get angry just typing it;

Can really just shorten this point to: "crust punks."

Haha I waffled on that, honestly, but I thought I'd be more generous. I think we have some reformed/current crust punks in our midst.

Hahaha, I just know that distinction very well; knew a couple of them in my high school/college days. Never asked them about it because I really don't care about their life decisions, but it always confused me. Calling them "crust punks with iphones" though always gave me some joy.

Great post again, Invisible Man!

Invisible Man wrote:

t-rey wrote:Well said. I absolutely agree with point about offendedness being an indicator of privilege. My general feeling is that this culture of offence/PC culture thing going on now was all but absent when I was in college, and that was less than 10 years ago. So, do you view this as a sign of increasing disparity of wealth and more people of privilege getting uppity about shit, or is it just getting more attention than it used to?

I think it is the first one. It is not getting any more attention, as far as I can see, than it ever has (which is far too little, of course). But the gap between we poor plebeian commonfolk and the monocle-wearing Monopoly (tm) men and women at the top of the food chain has been widening at a pace that is literally difficult to comprehend. What's happening here, at some level, feels like a symptom of an economic problem.

It's hard to fully articulate what I want to say here...but perhaps anecdotes are useful.

Again, on race: "Reverse racism" came up in a class--that's another popular myth that needs debunking. Racism is institutional; it's a condition of power. Most people mistake prejudice or discrimination for racism. If you're white, you can't experience racism. It isn't just being ostracized for looking different than everyone around you; it's walking into Target knowing that you won't find Band-Aids (tm) that match your skin color, or being asked to "speak for your race," or having to wonder if every slight against you is somehow racially inflected. If you experience racism, it means that the world is not built for you.

Making students understand this sort of thing is incredibly difficult unless they've lived it. They'll say "no, I work at a restaurant with tons of Mexicans, and they treat me differently. I have experienced racism." And, to get back on point, they get offended when I tell them that they're wrong.

The long and short of it is that everyone wants to lay claim to having suffered. I think that this is one of the roots of the SJW trend, and the intensity with which some people pursue it. They're trying to prove something rather than to fix something. If you've really been through some shit, you know better than to poke your nose into someone else's problem trying to fix their environment. That's a rich person-deal; there's always implied benevolence or condescension in this act. What's batshit crazy about this, and what I think might be the problem at the heart of this thread, is that:

offendedness=privilege
privilege=pretending to be poor to prove something (at least it often does)
appearance of poverty=utter bullshit, insincere pandering, disrespect to people who have it rough
disingenuousness=hurting the people you propose to "help" with your SJW persona that you will drop when the time comes

God damn it, I'm ranting again. Two more points:

1) I know a guy who makes every attempt to play the gutter punk card. Both of his parents are well-respected physicians; he doesn't really work. But his politics are bankrolled, as is his "punk lifestyle," which is such a shitty phrase that I get angry just typing it;
2) Long-dead Italian Communist Antonio Gramsci writes at length about the Organic Intellectual. These are people that are produced by shitty places who then rise up, educate themselves, and return to those places to apply their experience and intellect to do real good where it is needed, and in ways that no one else could provide (because no one else is from there, or wants to go back). And that explains why I live in Flint, America's murder capital.

Fuck, I'm an angry person. This is how my classes at university go...there's nowhere else I could get away with this shit.

Right on man - that was my hunch as well, that the gap is increasing and there are a lot more people speaking out in shitty (arguably insincere) ways.

I love the reverse racism argument. The second I come across someone that says that or 'I don't see color' I just stop listening to them. What would be interesting to look at from a cultural perspective, is how the act of suffering (or appearing to have suffered) and taking offense to things became so important. I guess it kind of goes with the whole 'self-made' thing we like to do in Murica - if we have suffered and convince everyone we came from nothing, then we are living out the American Dream.

Whatever. Dumb white people.

Yeah, I think that's right. It's the myth of the self-made man/woman at play. But if you didn't make yourself, then you have a lot of compensating to do. Paging Horatio Alger.