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Eivind August wrote:I do get a bit sickened by a lot of peoples sense of entitlement to stuff they don't own though, be it pedals, pirated music or whatever.

This is a hard one to square with a basic belief in freedom of information, but I agree with you.

Yo, my first instinct is to say fuck cloning in production pedals and selling for profit, etc.

But, I'd rather have a KLONE with Han Solo on it for $140, you know? JHS selling hyperion clones for $300 is gross though, and I laugh at anyone who has one.

There is a lot of other grey areas I'd like to address but I've been staring at and editing this post for like a half hour and I need to stop.

D.o.S. wrote:

Eivind August wrote:I do get a bit sickened by a lot of peoples sense of entitlement to stuff they don't own though, be it pedals, pirated music or whatever.

This is a hard one to square with a basic belief in freedom of information, but I agree with you.

This is basically my issue with both sides of the argument. I'm totally pro free use and freedom of information, actively give away my own music and such, but when it comes to things you make a profit on, it should be your own. Plain and simple.

I want to be cloned.

futuresailors wrote:I want to be cloned.

PM me if you're serious.

PumpkinPieces wrote:Yo, my first instinct is to say fuck cloning in production pedals and selling for profit, etc.

But, I'd rather have a KLONE with Han Solo on it for $140, you know?

The GAS is strong with this one.
Plus, he's donating to a friend with cancer, and that's something I can tip my hat to.
http://www.gofundme.com/helpchepo

I try to patronize and ideally barter with builders who invest considerable time, effort & resources into R&D or just getting-it-right w/r/t tuning their take on an old (or new) circuit. It helps drive innovation...and willing customers make it happen.
Individuals who really inspire me, I want to see them thrive and hear what's next
Especially those with an eye (and ear!) for detail.

The "cloners" who get my business are those building circuits long out of production, recreating power supplies and other 3rd party modules offered as legacy support for *obsolete* tech-based audio equipment. I am a big believer in OEM but also shopping secondhand for bargains and to minimize loss in turnaround from taking chances on "what if" purchases...and when the gear-fickleness strikes and my tastes change. Secondhand OEM holds value better than clones, and many builders offer subsequent owners the type of attentive customer service you might receive had you purchased it new.

Cloners who rebrand the designs of others and attempt to mask their origin...gooping the circuit while inflating the price...nope. Poor, poor form. Good luck getting customer service with such products...
Especially if the circuit is still in current production HOWEVER, if a builder is using superior parts and production technique on a custom basis with transparency...not gooping...I've gotta say that's a grey area. But anyone commercially trying to undercut the original builder from their own design/product can go screw.
There are too many opportunists, who are only in it for the quick bucks and poor form isn't their concern. If I have my way, they don't get my business.

BoatRich wrote:

D.o.S. wrote:

Eivind August wrote:I do get a bit sickened by a lot of peoples sense of entitlement to stuff they don't own though, be it pedals, pirated music or whatever.

This is a hard one to square with a basic belief in freedom of information, but I agree with you.

This is basically my issue with both sides of the argument. I'm totally pro free use and freedom of information, actively give away my own music and such, but when it comes to things you make a profit on, it should be your own. Plain and simple.

Exactly. Freedom of information is good, freedom of work is slavery. If you can't afford the pedal, you can't afford it.

I too give out my music for free, but I do think it's problematic that so many of us do. In a way we're building up the false notion that music isn't «real» work, and that musicians shouldn't be paid. I think it might be a crash between idealistic artistry and capitalist society. Maybe. But that's not what we were discussing, sorry.

D.o.S. wrote:

Eivind August wrote:I do get a bit sickened by a lot of peoples sense of entitlement to stuff they don't own though, be it pedals, pirated music or whatever.

This is a hard one to square with a basic belief in freedom of information, but I agree with you.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jVoroHx3IU[/youtube]

Read through most of this and I think it is kindof funny that this is even a discussion

In most other industries copying someone elses design would be complete bullshit and the products would be frowned upon

Music equipment seems to be one of the few places where it is ok to just rip things off (there and in China I guess)

Everytime I sell Jordan's on Ebay I have to have proof that they are real
and even if the quality of the fakes is identical to the real ones, nobody wants to buy them, people want authentic product

but all sorts of people rip off designs in music (guitars too not just pedals)
and it seems to be an accepted practice.

I do think the lowest of the low are the JHS types that are selling clones as premium product, and charging ridiculous amounts of money,

I don't know how far you take it because some of my favorite pedals are based off very old circuits, but none of them are outright ripoffs of new circuits.

My gut feeling is that copying other people's work is standard practice in most industries.

Anything where the law states that it is legal, and where the start costs are less than designing something yourself then you'll find cloning and reverse engineering and "near cloning" (I made that up, but you know, making something as close as possible to an existing product).

Depends on the industry but yes we have to fight against this all the time.
Since we don't control most of the drawings (customer specs)
we always have a ton of competition

There are some things that only we can build, which is always a great position to be in, and honestly there are legal actions you can take to try and stop others from stealing your work, but it generally costs more than most people or businesses can spend.

In the example of Nike, if they actually used premium materials it would make it harder for things to be stolen.

In my field we have a few things that we exclusively build because our engineering team is badass, and figured it out when nobody else could.

Rickenbacker is a good example of a company that aggressively protects its patents and creativity.

futuresailors wrote:I want to be cloned.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC7HDm3Uqik[/youtube]

goroth wrote:My gut feeling is that copying other people's work is standard practice in most industries.

Anything where the law states that it is legal, and where the start costs are less than designing something yourself then you'll find cloning and reverse engineering and "near cloning" (I made that up, but you know, making something as close as possible to an existing product).

hbombgraphics wrote:Read through most of this and I think it is kindof funny that this is even a discussion

In most other industries copying someone elses design would be complete bullshit and the products would be frowned upon

Music equipment seems to be one of the few places where it is ok to just rip things off (there and in China I guess)

Everytime I sell Jordan's on Ebay I have to have proof that they are real
and even if the quality of the fakes is identical to the real ones, nobody wants to buy them, people want authentic product

but all sorts of people rip off designs in music (guitars too not just pedals)
and it seems to be an accepted practice.


I do think the lowest of the low are the JHS types that are selling clones as premium product, and charging ridiculous amounts of money,

I don't know how far you take it because some of my favorite pedals are based off very old circuits, but none of them are outright ripoffs of new circuits.

Good posts