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smallsnd/bigsnd wrote:i've worn earplugs for years and can't recommend them enough. more important than pedals... *gasp*

grindonomicon wrote:

Fuzzy Fred wrote:Bands that play super loud suck.

Um, no. People that go to see shows where bands will easily exceed 100-115 decibels without hearing protection are, well, dumb. You should wear hearing protection for simple guitar practice, mowing the lawn, working in a factory, etc. A single electic guitar speaker puts out 95+ decibels if it's of any quality.

Risking the hearing you're going to have for life so you can, like, hear a band super good = stupid. Cuz you're only going to hear that band super good once.

All these things. My main rule is, if it don't grow back, don't fuck with it.

If you're a musician, you need to be able to hear. Earplugs. Reasonable headphone volumes.

grindonomicon wrote:

Fuzzy Fred wrote:Bands that play super loud suck.

Um, no. People that go to see shows where bands will easily exceed 100-115 decibels without hearing protection are, well, dumb. You should wear hearing protection for simple guitar practice, mowing the lawn, working in a factory, etc. A single electic guitar speaker puts out 95+ decibels if it's of any quality.

Risking the hearing you're going to have for life so you can, like, hear a band super good = stupid. Cuz you're only going to hear that band super good once.

A guitar speaker can be used at a reasonable volume, and a drum kit on its own probably won't hurt your hearing in a large room.

It's the ridiculous sound systems used at the concerts that are causing problems. It's fucking lame to expect people coming to concerts to bring ear protection when it's totally unneeded.

Fun fact: 50 watts into two speakers sounds exactly the same as 100 watts into 4. It's just not as loud. And that can scale down as low as you want. So even if the issue was how loud the amps are, it doesn't change the fact that it's unnecessary.

What's the point of loud if you're using earplugs to make it... less loud?

McSpunckle wrote:What's the point of loud if you're using earplugs to make it... less loud?

You can feel the "loud" even while using earplugs.

Sunn O))), Boris, Cough, The Body, Black Cobra....would not be the same live show/experience if they used 50w 212 combos with the volume on 4.
I get that you may not be into these bands but their use of high volume as part of their live show is necessary for their style of music.

MEC wrote:

McSpunckle wrote:What's the point of loud if you're using earplugs to make it... less loud?

You can feel the "loud" even while using earplugs.

Sunn O))), Boris, Cough, The Body, Black Cobra....would not be the same live show/experience if they used 50w 212 combos with the volume on 4.
I get that you may not be into these bands but their use of high volume as part of their live show is necessary for their style of music.

Word. I get that. I saw High on Fire once and the loudness did kinda make it more fun.

Although, as loud as it was, I didn't feel like I felt it a whole lot more than some quieter bands at the same festival...

So, yeah! I totally concede that ridiculous volume can be part of the show in some cases. But, like... would Them Crooked Vultures be one of those cases?

i love loud shows. it's not just the hearing aspect, it's like just feeling how fucking loud everything is. however i also recognize how shitty this is for me. i know it's not good enough, but i take a lot of vitamin c before and after! it reduces noise-related hearing loss in guinea pigs! i should start using earplugs and i almost definitely will whenever i can get a pair of really nice ones.

but for everything else, i really like to listen to music at a reasonable volume. especially with headphones. i have really good hearing and i would prefer it if it stays that way.

McSpunckle wrote:A guitar speaker can be used at a reasonable volume, and a drum kit on its own probably won't hurt your hearing in a large room.

It's the ridiculous sound systems used at the concerts that are causing problems. It's fucking lame to expect people coming to concerts to bring ear protection when it's totally unneeded.

Fun fact: 50 watts into two speakers sounds exactly the same as 100 watts into 4. It's just not as loud. And that can scale down as low as you want. So even if the issue was how loud the amps are, it doesn't change the fact that it's unnecessary.

What's the point of loud if you're using earplugs to make it... less loud?

It's difficult to use guitar speakers at a volume that won't damage your hearing, and every smart drummer I know uses plugs. I went a few jams w/o plugs in the garage this summer because I was 'only' using 10 and 15 watt amps (into a 4x12 and 2 1x12"s). Bad idea.

Doesn't matter if it's 5 or 50 watts when the speakers are making 95-100+ db on one watt of power. Loud has as much or more to do with speaker sensitivity and # of speakers and amount of high end than it has to do with watts. More power drives the speaker more and gives it the mojo/voice it has with juice, adds the resonance of the cab and phase cancellation of the speakers in a box.

I went to a fractional wattage tube amp, and less than a watt is what it takes to use a good 12" at reasonable volume. The point is to preserve your hearing, cuz loud is 99% of what's made. That's why 'good/loud enough to use for a gig' is a sales catchphrase for any amp 15 watts and up, and often used w/ the newer generation of 5 watt tube amps too. You'd have no problem wreckin' up yer eardrums with just a Valve Junior and a 4x12.

McSpunckle wrote:Frankly, I don't get the appeal of being super loud.

It seems most shows I go to are so loud that you'd have to wear ear plugs just to really hear the instruments well. That's just silly.

I like loud, but only to the point that it's still comfortable. It's not fair to say "Oh hey bring ear plugs" when you could just turn it the fuck down.

usually That's a soundguy's fault.

In my band, we play hard, so them cymbals are loud. This requires a certain volume for the bass and guitars to be heard. (Also, we like to feel a little thump from the bass) We have one volume. The Minimum Overall Volume. BUt when we play a cramped little tavern, and use the "PA" as they call it for vocals only, everybody says "Oh, it was perfectly loud, you guys sounded great!"

Now when we play the big rock club in town we take our chances on one of two soundguys. Soundguy one will clear the fucking room. Everybody says, "You sounded good from outside"
When soundguy two is on the job people say "Oh, it was perfectly loud, you guys sounded great! When did you get so sexy?"

When I saw Boris, we were really close, so the PA mains were just blowing past us, next to nothing from the PA in my ears, and I honestly thought
"This would be a lot better if it were a bit louder." Then my buddy and I switched spots, and I was assaulted by a pair of Twin Reverbs set to "treble attack" angled perfectly into my new position, which rather killed my ear hole. IN my previous spot I was head on to Takeshi's rig, and it was nothing like this twin reverb stack of death.

Moral of the story is you can USUALLY blame the soundguy. Buuuut theres always someone who will play like an asshole, too.

MEC wrote:

McSpunckle wrote:What's the point of loud if you're using earplugs to make it... less loud?

You can feel the "loud" even while using earplugs.

Sunn O))), Boris, Cough, The Body, Black Cobra....would not be the same live show/experience if they used 50w 212 combos with the volume on 4.
I get that you may not be into these bands but their use of high volume as part of their live show is necessary for their style of music.

Agreed.
The whole point of loud, is because it feels like nothing else in the world.
My band is a lot like this. When the volume punches you in the chest it's awesome. It's seriously like nothing else.

MEC wrote:

McSpunckle wrote:What's the point of loud if you're using earplugs to make it... less loud?

You can feel the "loud" even while using earplugs.

Sunn O))), Boris, Cough, The Body, Black Cobra....would not be the same live show/experience if they used 50w 212 combos with the volume on 4.
I get that you may not be into these bands but their use of high volume as part of their live show is necessary for their style of music.

Couldn't agree more but I'm in the habit of using earplugs.

McSpunckle wrote:I totally concede that ridiculous volume can be part of the show in some cases. But, like... would Them Crooked Vultures be one of those cases?

You wouldn't think so but I saw TCV and that show was incredibly loud. Not the same type of "loud" as a stone/sludge/doom band, more an issue of the piercing tone Josh Homme has been favoring the last couple years. Felt like hot pokers in the earhole. Resorted to plugs at that show unexpectedly.

unownunown wrote: i should start using earplugs and i almost definitely will whenever i can get a pair of really nice ones.

Anything (cheap foam plugs) is better than nothing.

unownunown wrote:know it's not good enough, but i take a lot of vitamin c before and after! i have really good hearing and i would prefer it if it stays that way.

I wouldn't count on Vitamin C offering any true protection against the physical damage inflicted on your ears due to insane volume/decibel levels regardless of any guinea pig study results. I see what they're getting at but those guinea pigs aren't in a band or attending loud fucking shows. If you play or watch live music and really want to preserve your hearing, it's simple, wear earplugs.

aen wrote:When I saw Boris, we were really close, so the PA mains were just blowing past us, next to nothing from the PA in my ears, and I honestly thought "This would be a lot better if it were a bit louder." Then my buddy and I switched spots, and I was assaulted by a pair of Twin Reverbs set to "treble attack" angled perfectly into my new position, which rather killed my ear hole. IN my previous spot I was head on to Takeshi's rig, and it was nothing like this twin reverb stack of death.

Moral of the story is you can USUALLY blame the soundguy. Buuuut theres always someone who will play like an asshole, too.

Good post, full of wisdom.



Bottom Line and slightly off topic:
Earplugs, Sunglasses, Sunscreen, Condoms = important layers of protection neglected by many until it's too late. Why take the risk? Well, not so much the sunglasses as they look cool and people wear 'em when it's not even necessary but you get my drift...

Guitar Wolf concert really scared me into looking into some custom made earplugs. I don't go to shows that often, but my ears rang for weeks afterwards (we were too close to the stage and they were too loud for the venue size).

i got those etymotics that some ppl mentioned here, and for the price (<$20) they are really nice. everything is still very clear just bumped down a notch. i've enjoyed actually being able to hear ppl and have conversations w/ them at venues.

I can't imagine playing at volumes where I wouldn't need earplugs.

D.o.S. wrote:I can't imagine playing at volumes where I wouldn't need earplugs.

Dude, it sucks.

I mean, I played a coffee shop once, but I was so stoned I forgot to turn my amp on.

That said, I've got a bit of tinnitus and its absolutely no fun at all.

I practice and gig with plugs as much as I can. Gotta protect the irreplaceable shit. I just use the generic foam jobs; I've tried fancy plugs and they're ok, but don't stand up to the hazards I get around to... Tonally, I feel like I've learned to equate the sound of my bass tone through the plugs... In some cases, the generic "muffler" plugs can actually help me monitor my bass playing, and in some cases/venues, they mask too much of the guitar/drum sound for good, tight observation... If my playing is suffering then I will pull out the plugs on a gig, however, 98% of the time, shit stays put...