ilovefuzz.com

jrmy wrote:

Gearmond wrote:

jarder wrote:People always forget that the government does everything behind the barrel of a gun. Just because they didn't run in guns blazing does not mean they weren't there.

having a gun and using it are two completely different things.

i'm pretty liberal but most gun owners are kinda in the same mentality as martial artists

Speaking as a peaceful, liberal person with a number of gentle, liberal martial artist friends, I'm curious as to what that mindset is. To say nothing of my gun-owning friends (most of whom who live in downeast Maine and do, in fact, hunt for food).

Gearmond wrote:

jrmy wrote:

Gearmond wrote:

jarder wrote:People always forget that the government does everything behind the barrel of a gun. Just because they didn't run in guns blazing does not mean they weren't there.

having a gun and using it are two completely different things.

i'm pretty liberal but most gun owners are kinda in the same mentality as martial artists

Speaking as a peaceful, liberal person with a number of gentle, liberal martial artist friends, I'm curious as to what that mindset is. To say nothing of my gun-owning friends (most of whom who live in downeast Maine and do, in fact, hunt for food).

that its mostly something done for practice/self/defence/food etc. i think its a sort of cultural indoctrination that weapons are bad or w/e but in some cases, thats a one dimensional observation, and yeah the NRA are way too fucking vocal for their own good, and gun rights should be as important as the right to stay up as late as you want, but most people there take it seriously or w/e.

i guess what i mean is that if someone walks around with a concealed weapon, chances are they got it illegally n stuff.

Schlatte wrote:moar info?
klick:
http://blogs.ajc.com/bob-barr-blog/2011/08/31/gibson-guitar-to-uncle-sam-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cfrom-my-cold-dead-hands%E2%80%9D/

dubkitty wrote:the DoJ actually did order Gibson not to ship any product from the Nashville plant, saying that if they shipped even one guitar it would be considered obstruction of justice and a potential criminal violation. Gibson told them to fuck off.

McSpunckle wrote:if the wood had been finished by Indians it would be legal...

McSpunckle wrote:

Schlatte wrote:moar info?
klick:
http://blogs.ajc.com/bob-barr-blog/2011/08/31/gibson-guitar-to-uncle-sam-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Cfrom-my-cold-dead-hands%E2%80%9D/

That's just another right-wing take on the story. Sadly, there's not really any new info in there.

McSpunckle wrote:Moreover, if they do ship guitars made of illegal wood after knowing it's illegal, and the guitars get taken from their owners, that's really Gibson's fault. But so far nobody's guitars have been taken, and that probably won't ever happen.

Mudfuzz wrote:

McSpunckle wrote:if the wood had been finished by Indians it would be legal...

more info?

The investigation that led to the searches last week began when a customs official intercepted an air shipment of 1,250 ebony fingerboards in Dallas on June 22, according to an affidavit filed in support of the search warrant. The shipment was mislabeled as “finished parts of musical instruments,” which are legal to export, the affidavit said.

The paperwork with the shipment did not say the wood was going to Gibson Guitar Corporation in Nashville. Agents from the Fish and Wildlife Service interviewed officials at a Canadian import company listed on a manifest and a storage company in Nashville where the wood was to be warehoused. They determined that the Gibson factories were the final destination.

The affidavit maintains that unfinished fingerboard blanks that are more than a centimeter thick cannot be exported under Indian law; only finished pieces of veneer, about half as thick can be exported. The intent of the law is to protect woodworking jobs in India.

But Mr. Juszkiewicz disputes this interpretation of the Indian statutes and the international tariff code. Gibson has been importing fingerboards from India for more than 17 years, he said, without any objections from the Indian government. He added that as recently as July the company’s agents in India received a ruling from Indian trade officials stating that the fingerboards could be exported.

Mudfuzz wrote:Thing is about this whole thing.. Don't think for a minute Gibson [i.e.some one in the company] doesn't know what they are buying. Whole wood import companies have come into being because of gibson. They know where they are getting shit. They know if it is or not legal. They have been around too long to not not know. And they are too big not to have some one[s] keeps taps on where everything is coming from. So if they use illegal wood then either they knew and didn't care or someone at Gibson fucked up.

dubkitty wrote:

Mudfuzz wrote:

McSpunckle wrote:if the wood had been finished by Indians it would be legal...

more info?

from the New York Times (please note that i'm trying to find mainstream sources as much as possible):

The investigation that led to the searches last week began when a customs official intercepted an air shipment of 1,250 ebony fingerboards in Dallas on June 22, according to an affidavit filed in support of the search warrant. The shipment was mislabeled as “finished parts of musical instruments,” which are legal to export, the affidavit said.

The paperwork with the shipment did not say the wood was going to Gibson Guitar Corporation in Nashville. Agents from the Fish and Wildlife Service interviewed officials at a Canadian import company listed on a manifest and a storage company in Nashville where the wood was to be warehoused. They determined that the Gibson factories were the final destination.

The affidavit maintains that unfinished fingerboard blanks that are more than a centimeter thick cannot be exported under Indian law; only finished pieces of veneer, about half as thick can be exported. The intent of the law is to protect woodworking jobs in India.

But Mr. Juszkiewicz disputes this interpretation of the Indian statutes and the international tariff code. Gibson has been importing fingerboards from India for more than 17 years, he said, without any objections from the Indian government. He added that as recently as July the company’s agents in India received a ruling from Indian trade officials stating that the fingerboards could be exported.

the figures 6mm and 10mm have been used above; i've noted that that's within the bounds of error of a lumber-yard worker, and will note here that it's especially so if that worker is working in a lumber yard out in the sticks somewhere with old, beat-up machinery as one might expect in a developing nation.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... al-agents/

Schlatte wrote:but huh? gibson surely has contracts with their suppliers... and if the contracts violate law it's not their fault because there are always two sides who have to sign it... and if the company or country signs the contract, they accept the terms and stuff... soo... why does the government fuck with gibson? i dont get the whole point of this....

dubkitty wrote:the figures 6mm and 10mm have been used above; i've noted that that's within the bounds of error of a lumber-yard worker, and will note here that it's especially so if that worker is working in a lumberyard out in the sticks somewhere with old, beat-up machinery as one might expect in a developing nation.

dubkitty wrote:see, that doesn't follow logically. if you have a company that consumes tens or hundreds of thousands of fretboards a year, what makes the logical conclusion deliberate fraud rather than unintentional error? after all, if they were going to try to evade customs regs with ebony fingerboards, why go for only 1250 of them in a period of two years of DoJ surveillance? why not go for a boatload? it doesn't make sense on economy-of-scale terms.

dubkitty wrote:

Mudfuzz wrote:Thing is about this whole thing.. Don't think for a minute Gibson [i.e.some one in the company] doesn't know what they are buying. Whole wood import companies have come into being because of gibson. They know where they are getting shit. They know if it is or not legal. They have been around too long to not not know. And they are too big not to have some one[s] keeps taps on where everything is coming from. So if they use illegal wood then either they knew and didn't care or someone at Gibson fucked up.

see, that doesn't follow logically. if you have a company that consumes tens or hundreds of thousands of fretboards a year, what makes the logical conclusion deliberate fraud rather than unintentional error? after all, if they were going to try to evade customs regs with ebony fingerboards, why go for only 1250 of them in a period of two years of DoJ surveillance? why not go for a boatload? it doesn't make sense on economy-of-scale terms.