raising kids without gender

[unownunown]

actually, ehrensaft criticized the parents' decision. "But she worries by not divulging Storm’s sex, the parents are denying the child a way to position himself or herself in a world where you are either male, female or in between. In effect they have created another category: Other than other. And that could marginalize the child."

a really important question in gender psychology is the nature of the relationship between the differences of men's and women's brains. is it cultural or biological? there have been studies on the differences between 'eastern' and 'western' brains which psychologists interpret as highlighting cultural differences, not biological ones. most would argue that it would be racist to attribute these differences to biology and not culture. i think this same line of thought should translate to gender although so many generations of gender stereotypes and the west's false gender dichotomy will make that sort of thinking hard to widely realize.

i think it's important to note that people unknowingly treat even babies different based on their understanding of the child's gender. gender stereotypes are subtly encouraged and often enforced by culture and the media at large. it's hard to really cite the cause of the differences because we begin learning culture the second we come out of the womb. i guess all this also asks
the question... if there are differences in the brain biologically, how much do they really matter? if our culture and media is still going to feed men's interests in sports and sciences while stomping out women's interests in the same, then does it matter even if women end up being better at it? (by encouraging men's interests and not women's i'm partially referring to the underrepresentation women have in the media as scientists and CEOs and athletes and politicians and musicians and etc... yes, there are less female scientists in real life than male, but there are also less beautiful people in real life than there are on television and magazine covers.)

[bubstance]

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[phantasmagorovich]

And they make a decision anyway. They just pretend it was not them who was in charge.

[dubkitty]

i apologize if i somehow gave you the impression that i'm a libertarian.

what's the difference between refusing to supply direction for your children because it's an intellectual fashion statement and failing to supply direction for your children because you're drunk on your ass?

also, you notice how the "non-gendering" parents refer to the "non-gendered" child as "she"? i think Mommy just is pissed off she had a third boy, is what i think.

[plhogan]

I kinda don't understand the full on demonization of these parents though. We may disagree with how they've decided to raise their child but to instantly call it a "fashion show" or to say they're doing this for evil, ulterior reasons is kind of odd. Generally, people love their children very much and it seems to me if they're going to these kinds of lengths it's at least something they truly believe in. Not that it precludes discussion about the act itself, just that assigning them bad motives is faulty considering all we have to go on is a newspaper article.

[morange]

By making such a big deal about hiding gender, it makes it seem to the kids that gender is a very big deal. Instead of living without the pressure of gender, their entire lives will be about gender, about hiding it or trying to see where they fit in, or if they don't at all. How is that better than saying, "look, you're a girl, but that doesn't mean you have to do girl things. Do anything you want, no matter what society tells you; because, daughter, people will expect you to do things because you're a girl, and as long as you know that, they can't control you." Being a girl is nice, but it's not what life is about.

[Gearmond]

i think its hypocritical imposing purposefully ambiguousness to their own gender, why? because while enforcing the dichotomy may be wrong to a degree, so is pretending it doesn't exist is just as bad. by the way neither are very bad to begin with, and quite frankly gender identity is something that is utterly pointless until puberty.

so yes don't hold them up to the standards, but don't force it away. and seeing as i remember knowing a shitton of tomboy girls from school who are now fairly girly girl, it just goes to show that stuff like this done at an early age is a useless and insipid waste of effort towards better understanding of gender.

but the fact of the matter is this: gender is a biologically dichotomous system and any sense of androgeny is a play off of the two contrasting elements of human gender. but if you infer that i mean that you SHOULDN'T play off the two, then you're completey wrong.

[SPACERITUAL]

Someone should remind these people that kids are dumb and not suited to making good decisions. There is very little difference between a toddler and a really drunk frat guy. They both stagger around breaking shit, babbling something incomprehensible, then they puke all over everything, pass out , and shit themselves.

If they, "noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It’s obnoxious,” then why are the being equally obnoxious the other way around.

And don't even get me started on "unschooling".

God youre fucking awesome. This post is fucking awesome.


Also if you think this preference for femeninity especially in the older one is something the child came up with you are delusional.

you know, Spanky, it's about time for you to get over this attitude of yours that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid or misinformed. people, myself included, have clearly read the article and have mentioned various of its particulars, and you can see that. if you really WANT to have a "real discussion," don't be a troll.

I honestly lol'ed.

one day the kid is gonna grab his dick and ask his mom what it is. the mom is gonna have a some dumb shit answer that will make him want to play with it more or cut it off.

Never know, he might want to cut it off and then play with it.

AND THERES MY IN.

NSFW: show

http://www.painolympics.info/

[Caesar]

When asked what psychological harm, if any, could come from keeping the sex of a child secret, Zucker said: “One will find out.”

This pretty much sums up how fucked up these people are!



It is an interesting theoretical question. But it is just twisted to actually do that to your child.

This is even a stronger point. Psychological experiments on actual human subjects has been deemed unethical for quite some time. Parents like this really make me mad. (Like to the point where care (which is saying something!)) There is something egomanical in parents like this. There are too many fucktards in this world, and they fall into this class.

I am not the best parent in the world, but I support my kids as best I can. My youngest daughter is very masculine, and I don't prevent her from being this way. I make sure to let her know that some of her friends that are girls might not always like when she says she's going to marry them. I educate her about gender stereotypes, but I don't tell her to not be a certain way.

Anyway I think the kid in th article is young, and the parents will cave at some point.

[Caesar]

i was really skeptical of unschooling too. i don't know if i would do it if i ever wanted kids, but it's not as crazy of an idea as it seems. if you've got the time, here's a long but really interesting speech a woman who was unschooled gave. when i really think about it, all the things i'm really passionate about i've pursued on my own. i think unschooling really only works if the parents instill a love of learning and some extreme curiosity in their kids from a very young age.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwIyy1Fi-4Q[/youtube]

I don't want to derail the conversation off onto unschooling, but....

The the unschooled can be more creative. They can be smart. They can uncover things that typically educated people can't. But, they depend on a world of people who have formed a collective society to support them. It stems from ego-maniacal parents who think they really smart and their offspring have come to save humanity from itself.

I lived in a apartment with a bunch of artists. The kitchen had piles of dirty dishes that no one cleaned. The trash piled up and had mice running through it. The toilet was pink and black with mold and grime. If you took a shower, you were probably dirtier than when you went in. This is a society of the unschooled. On some level you need to beat some conformity into people. It's how we deal as a society.

And you better have a lot of $$$ if you're gonna unschool.

[phantasmagorovich]

Witterick and Stocker seem to be raising their three children in a kind of bubble by creating an expectation-free zone, which may be great for experimentation but doesn't help them develop the strength and confidence to be comfortable in the world inhabited by other children and adults.

From this article: Huffington Post

That is pretty much what's wrong about this. Let aside the moral viewpoint which makes these parents wretched beings, it is the meaning of parenting to help children become adults. That means raising them to be independent human beings. That means giving them every chance to be confident and assured persons, capable of thought, frustration, decisions, bearing consequences, planning the future etc. I'm not saying these people are raising Jazz, Kio and Storm to be Zombies, they are thinking they are doing the best for their children. I am sure about that, but I don't think they're right. If you want to raise a child to be a confident individual, you can't alienate him from everybody else. (Remember the girls in the park who refused to play with Jazz?)

Having read a fair share of gender and some feminist theory and authors, I have come to this conclusion:
The way our mind works is by separation. We can only grasp a concept if we can conceive at least a binary pair. The problem about this is that some other binary pairs usually sift into the thoughts and suddenly one of the pair is bad while the other is good etc. This also happened with gender and that is what's bad about it. Not that gender exists, but the fact that one is looked down upon. (Still, in spite of all the efforts to remedy this.) I don't think abolition of gender is possible. I think distinguishing thinks is a decisive factor in human thought. But it might be possible to have more than two genders. Once the binary good vs evil pair of masculine vs feminine gets transformed into a more complex system with more than two genders, the whole attribution of good vs evil will not work anymore.

No, I am not raising my daughter to be of a third gender.

[Gearmond]

i was really skeptical of unschooling too. i don't know if i would do it if i ever wanted kids, but it's not as crazy of an idea as it seems. if you've got the time, here's a long but really interesting speech a woman who was unschooled gave. when i really think about it, all the things i'm really passionate about i've pursued on my own. i think unschooling really only works if the parents instill a love of learning and some extreme curiosity in their kids from a very young age.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwIyy1Fi-4Q[/youtube]

I don't want to derail the conversation off onto unschooling, but....

The the unschooled can be more creative. They can be smart. They can uncover things that typically educated people can't. But, they depend on a world of people who have formed a collective society to support them. It stems from ego-maniacal parents who think they really smart and their offspring have come to save humanity from itself.

I lived in a apartment with a bunch of artists. The kitchen had piles of dirty dishes that no one cleaned. The trash piled up and had mice running through it. The toilet was pink and black with mold and grime. If you took a shower, you were probably dirtier than when you went in. This is a society of the unschooled. On some level you need to beat some conformity into people. It's how we deal as a society.

And you better have a lot of $$$ if you're gonna unschool.

exactly. unschooling is a really shallow "my kid is special" kind of thing, and if they're really all that special they should be able to excel in a traditional setting or be able to overcome the limitations that hinder them from operating as well in said traditional setting.

education should in no way be set up to glorify the kids that are already good, which unschooling seems to do. it just seems to be one of those terribly naive "we don't need a system to work" philosophies that while optimistic, are unrealistic in the way they percieve how people work.

yes, children are naturally curious, but five bucks no one here was like SUPER into math or anything useful until they were like 13.

[Jwar]

Fucking morons.

[McSpunckle]

Unschooling is a bit weird, but I think its principles could help improve the current education system. Hammering the kids with facts for several hours really doesn't do anything but force them to memorize stuff to pass a test-- then forget it. I remember all the kids that got A's in my school were always the dumbest ones, for the most part. Adding a more natural teaching method with real world application would really help kids understand what it is they're doing in school. It'd be especially helpful in younger children.

But, yeah, from the surface, I definitely agree with you guys. But I try to keep my mind open, since I haven't really looked into how exactly it works.

I kinda don't understand the full on demonization of these parents though. We may disagree with how they've decided to raise their child but to instantly call it a "fashion show" or to say they're doing this for evil, ulterior reasons is kind of odd. Generally, people love their children very much and it seems to me if they're going to these kinds of lengths it's at least something they truly believe in. Not that it precludes discussion about the act itself, just that assigning them bad motives is faulty considering all we have to go on is a newspaper article.

I have to agree with this, too.

[futuresailors]

The principle of unschooling is what bugs me about it. If you only teach your kids what they ask about, you're severely limiting what they end up learning about, and in turn limiting their future possibilities. It might be more structured in practice, but I'm still going to hate it on principle.

And I'd say the parents are being demonized more for being twats as parents, not for the whole not telling people the kids' genders. I've called kids the wrong gender before and the parents left it up to the kid to correct me, so that's nothing special. But bringing your kid to Mexico to live with revolutionaries because of your stupid ideals, and flipping a coin on what gender to call it on vacation sort of undermines the whole "we don't want to influence them" thing.