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Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:33 pm
by devnulljp
dubkitty wrote:why doesn't anyone mock all the non-religious apocalypse-mongers? what happened to the millions of people who were going to be homeless, and the islands that were going to disappear, because the earth was warming? that's what "respected scientists" said five years ago. after they'd said in previous decades that we were entering a new ice age, that we would run out of oil by 1985, that we'd run out of food by 1980, etc. seems to me that scientific apocalypse-mongering has a similar 100% FAIL rate to religious apocalypse-mongering.
That would be because these things
are happening. Only instead of being all gleeful about it, science is trying to figure out ways to stop/slow down/reverse the problems.
You know that warming and an ice age aren't mutually incompatible right? You know that weather and climate are different things right? Right?
Guess that's what happens when you have a scientifically illiterate population.
Never mind, John Frumm will sort it all out when he comes back in a wooden chariot of fire ... or something
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:20 pm
by McSpunckle
dubkitty wrote:why doesn't anyone mock all the non-religious apocalypse-mongers? what happened to the millions of people who were going to be homeless, and the islands that were going to disappear, because the earth was warming? that's what "respected scientists" said five years ago. after they'd said in previous decades that we were entering a new ice age, that we would run out of oil by 1985, that we'd run out of food by 1980, etc. seems to me that scientific apocalypse-mongering has a similar 100% FAIL rate to religious apocalypse-mongering.
Nobody really says Global Warming is going to kill everyone... more that it'll destroy ecosystems, coastal communities (especially the ones made of ice), and polar bears whilst resulting in a much more active atmosphere causing storms to gradually become more severe.
And all of that shit is actually happening.
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:26 pm
by bubstance
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Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:44 pm
by McSpunckle
The old "it happened, you just can't see it" dodge.
Classy.
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:06 am
by Eric!
Dick joke island!
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:08 am
by Gearmond
Blackened Soul wrote:Gearmond wrote:but the running irony there is, that why should we listen to some magicians :P
Why listen to anyone? You think some wackjob and/or clergyman would be better? At least in this day and age we know what magicians do isn't magic so I'd say a magician would be as good to listen to as anyone else
i wouldn't because its not really their forte.
if a biologist suddenly became known for their views in say metaphysics, the only people who take them seriously would be the media and sensationalists.
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:15 am
by Bassus Sanguinis
McSpunckle wrote:dubkitty wrote:why doesn't anyone mock all the non-religious apocalypse-mongers? what happened to the millions of people who were going to be homeless, and the islands that were going to disappear, because the earth was warming? that's what "respected scientists" said five years ago. after they'd said in previous decades that we were entering a new ice age, that we would run out of oil by 1985, that we'd run out of food by 1980, etc. seems to me that scientific apocalypse-mongering has a similar 100% FAIL rate to religious apocalypse-mongering.
Nobody really says Global Warming is going to kill everyone... more that it'll destroy ecosystems, coastal communities (especially the ones made of ice), and polar bears whilst resulting in a much more active atmosphere causing storms to gradually become more severe.
And all of that shit is actually happening.
this.
It isn't too hard to see the phenomenon either, not this near the North Pole. As always, the researchers don't agree completely with the measuring results of the tests, but hey - THAT's what makes science.
Discussion and testing of ideas, not revelations. Revelations may have subjective value to individuals but they hardly stand as an example for scientific reasoning.
One part of the researchers note that in every-so-and-so years we're likely to meet the marginal limiting values of weather extremes, so the Green house effect
may not be the reason for witnessed hard winters and dry summers, though it IS possible. Another part of researchers say it is and that's a fact. And even if it wasn't, it might be a smart thing to be better safe than sorry. Then comes the trouble with telling this to people.
Spreading environmental doesn't seem to be any easier on the large scale than rooting any other idea that might dictate some major change in how we think and how we act, on the level of the whole society. THAT takes time. For example: Western Civilization didn't give up slavery over night when somebody said it's just morally wrong (not that we've given up with slave labor up to date but that's a different discussion) AND in future machines could do that labor better. Now the idea is pretty well rooted and we're often even concerned about the original of the cheap products and the possibility of slave labor in the production (but, like said, that's another discussion).
And when environmental consciousness has had the foothold enough, it doesn't translate on itself from the words into action. Not an easy thing to do either, since it calls for cutting down and regulating some things we've got used to in the West. We are asked to recycle, to consume less, to use sparingly, to share, and to repair instead of just buying a new one... and we'd like to see people in the Developing countries start first
cutting down the polluting that results from getting SOME hold of the benefits of societal welfare. For example: when we're asked not to use cars for one person transportation at all the public rages about how
they should start in the Africa and in the China, their cars polute much more!.
Does that answer or suggest towards the answer to the few unanswered questions above? Good!
perhaps a mod should split this whole environmental issues discussion as a thread of its own ,eh?
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:19 am
by Scruffie
The other thing about science... it admits when it gets shit wrong and never says anything is set in stone, they're theories and predictions based o trends and evidence, not fictional children stories from 2000 years ago.
I think this old quote from Red Dwarf somes up the bible "Archaeologists near Mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental."
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:53 pm
by dubkitty
devnulljp wrote:You know that warming and an ice age aren't mutually incompatible right? You know that weather and climate are different things right? Right?
Guess that's what happens when you have a scientifically illiterate population.
Never mind, John Frumm will sort it all out when he comes back in a wooden chariot of fire ... or something
McSpunckle wrote:The old "it happened, you just can't see it" dodge.
Classy.
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:23 pm
by McSpunckle
dubkitty wrote:devnulljp wrote:You know that warming and an ice age aren't mutually incompatible right? You know that weather and climate are different things right? Right?
Guess that's what happens when you have a scientifically illiterate population.
Never mind, John Frumm will sort it all out when he comes back in a wooden chariot of fire ... or something
McSpunckle wrote:The old "it happened, you just can't see it" dodge.
Classy.
This is what he actually said:
devnulljp wrote:That would be because these things
are happening. Only instead of being all gleeful about it, science is trying to figure out ways to stop/slow down/reverse the problems.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/science.jpgYou know that warming and an ice age aren't mutually incompatible right? You know that weather and climate are different things right? Right?
Guess that's what happens when you have a scientifically illiterate population.
Never mind, John Frumm will sort it all out when he comes back in a wooden chariot of fire ... or something
Him and I both argued that you -can- see it. If you're going to use my words, please at least leave whatever you're arguing against in context.
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:49 pm
by Gearmond
Scruffie wrote:The other thing about science... it admits when it gets shit wrong and never says anything is set in stone, they're theories and predictions based o trends and evidence, not fictional children stories from 2000 years ago.
I think this old quote from Red Dwarf somes up the bible "Archaeologists near Mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental."
apparently y'all ain't familiar with the concept of revelatory religion. which all abrahamic religions are.
science doesn't admit when it gets stuff wrong, it just says "oh, i didn't say that for SURE. and i had a theory for it anyway" science is the vindictive bitch sister of philosophy
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:53 pm
by dubkitty
McSpunckle wrote:Him and I both argued that you -can- see it. If you're going to use my words, please at least leave whatever you're arguing against in context.
but it works so nicely to impeach you with your own side's reasoning. do you not understand that your whole argument, though you THINK that it's based on science, is in fact every bit as faith-based, inflexible, and impervious to reason as that of the religious? that the whole last decade of CO2-based apocalypse-mongering has been an extended exercise in moving the goalposts and redefining the "crisis" as each successive horrorshow dependably fails to materialize, so "global warming" becomes "climate change" and thus ANY variation from average is siezed upon as "proof" of...well, of SOMETHING, by crikey!? or that when the proposed response from the UN/enviro/tranzi community to ANY situation is limitation of the economies of the West, technology and wealth transfers to the Third World, and generally weakening the freedoms that Westerners enjoy, that people are finally beginning to understand that the solutions are not the answers to the problem but are using the problems as an excuse for the will to power and the politics of envy?
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:57 pm
by dubkitty
Gearmond wrote:science doesn't admit when it gets stuff wrong, it just says "oh, i didn't say that for SURE. and i had a theory for it anyway" science is the vindictive bitch sister of philosophy
exactly. people are still arguing Darwin vs. Lamarck. there have even been attempts to rehabilitate Lysenko's scientific reputation, and i'm sure ideology has
nothing to do with that
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:14 pm
by StudioShutIn
Re: So...Why Didn't The Rapture Happen?
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:28 pm
by dubkitty
i learned a long time ago that it's impossible to have a discussion in the modern world on any philosophical topic which verges on mainstream religion, and on Christianity in particular, because there is a large and extremely vocal segment of the Internet public that absolutely hates religion in general and Christianity and Christians in particular. i'd be perfectly happy to chat at length about the lack of support in the Bible and normal Christian teaching for the concept of the Rapture, the contradiction between traditional Christian and other religious teachings versus apocalyptic predictions and cults, whether or not--as a friend of mine wondered on the phone last night--we'd even KNOW if it was The Apocalypse if the shit hit the fan (i mean, how could you tell the difference between that and yer regular nuclear holocaust unless an angel told you?), whether that kind of eschatology is even relevant to one's spiritual existence or fate, the tiny size of Harold Camping's following versus the massive amount of play he's gotten in the media, or any other number of aspects of the situation that allow a more nuanced viewpoint that UGH DUMM XTIANZ BADD, but there seems to be no more interest in that than there is ability to see the similarity between religion and scientism, so there you go.
