ilovefuzz.com

AngryGoldfish wrote:Also, what I find really... sad... but understandable, is when PGS come out with a 15% sale on, PryMaxe release a 16% sale. Have others noticed this?

Yeah, I noticed that a while ago too. It was the first of many clues that Prymaxe runs a sleazy business

THEBEERHAMMER wrote:

JuJo wrote:

THEBEERHAMMER wrote:

AngryGoldfish wrote:I've read most of this thread and have not noticed Pro Guitar Shop being mentioned. They have a 15% sale on every time I receive an email from them, which is weekly, maybe even more often than that. I know PGS are a little different in that they don't change the value on the packages in order to cut out VAT and duties. They used to but they've stopped doing it—or maybe they're only doing it every now and again. They often ship in boxes which costs more but secures the pedals well. They also exclude certain companies from the discounts, the ones that request it. This is better practise than PryMaxe who threatened Tom, but it's still not ideal. Maybe these pedal builders specifically sought to be exempt of the consistent 15% sale for a valid reason. I know Fulltone are one company who choose to omit themselves.

Also, what I find really... sad... but understandable, is when PGS come out with a 15% sale on, PryMaxe release a 16% sale. Have others noticed this?

I refuse to shop at PGS because blooz demos.

but you're ok with PRymaxe demos?

At least prymass turns up the gain....although i think that was only in the WIZARDDDDD days.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP9no7PWBgY[/youtube]

his demos were much more imaginitive and representative of the pedals than the current demos. I enjoyed his demos for the most part, until the knob sweeps started, but you could always turn it off at that point. THe Mike Hermans demos bother me as they are more focused on showing off his playing than what the pedal does. He does show some interesting uses for some pedals, but all fuzz pedals sound the same. I'm not crazy about the style of alot of PGS demos but I find they do a good job of illustrating the range of a pedal.

As for AngryGoldfish's post, which I meant to comment on, I think PGS gets a little slack because, while they do perpetuate the 15% sale, they seem to take it more from their end, instead of builder/customer. The complaints here are largely based on the builders not having their MAP honoured, even after speaking up on the issue, or the customer ending out with packages that weren't packaged/shipped properly or not getting good service /fair treatment. In the dealer's case, now they are being strongarmed, and threatened with legal action for not selling to the distributor, which is beyond laughable. In my case, shipping and customer service were a big issue, and I don't appreciate getting jerked around, or having a pedal show up in suspect packaging. (I'm not gonna rehash my story, it's somewhere in the previous pages).

I noticed that PGS now has an option to ship pedals priority in a large envelope. At the risk of sounding hypocritical I am actually considering going this route, but because they are up front about it and the savings are on my end. I feel it is entirely different than paying the full rate for first class international and then finding out your pedal wasn't protected in a first class manner for the shipping. Also, PGS is respecting at least some buiders requests to be taken off the constant sale list.

To me, the big issue is the honesty of it. Not listening to your suppliers or customers can really only end one way...

Some interesting and productive discussion here!

I want to be clear about my feelings on MAP and competition.

It's weird/shitty when "competition" hurts builders and customers...and seems to lead to price increases.
Competition can be (should be!) really good for customers.

I don't have all the answers! But I think these are great ways for dealers to compete without hurting the market / small builders:
1) Great customer service / policies / return policies.
2) Great website.
3) Fast, daily shipping.
4) Seasonal sales (with some agreed-on limits, I think seasonal sales are a good thing).
5) Exclusive colors/graphics or models. I love doing this. It works great and it's fun!
6) Then there's the possibility of a dealer rewarding long-term customers by privately giving them a lower price, as long as that doesn't violate a builder-dealer agreement.

But agreeing to a builder's MAPs, then slashing it by 15%, then demanding that builders sell them their pedals for less, and threatening to sue them if they don't...isn't cool.
As a builder, it sucks to see little mom and pop shops unable to compete (unless a dealer is starting out with tons of money, it's a lose-lose, when you have to either match the 15% off and make $3 per sale, or don't match it and don't sell pedals)...it sucks ending up with fewer dealers being able to stock your pedals, having your sales go down, being dependent on the bully...

Bottom-line, I think it's obvious that builders and dealers need signed agreements to prevent being bullied...possibly right out of business. It may seem surprising, but the vast majority of small builders have no contract with dealers, and probably take all the "hey bro, you rock, send me 10 pedals" type emails to mean that the dealer has your best interest at heart. And I think most dealers do! It's only common sense to value the people supplying your product...without builders, you have no product to sell.



Anyway, like I've said before, I personally don't feel bad getting a big deal on mass-market, corporation-made stuff (a lot of them have strict contracts about pricing and sales anyway). And there are a lot of builders with such inflated prices...it's probably not hurting them as much (and many of them are on sales exclusion lists anyway, because they want to set the value for their brand).

The surprising thing in my case was, I didn't even take that hard-line an approach to MAP. I first sent a few friendly reminders about MAP (all ignored). Then, I simply asked to be put on their sales exclusion list--I even said I was cool with seasonal sales! That was met with threats of Prymaxe dropping me. I shrugged and decided not to stock them anymore. Months later, I received a few order requests from Prymaxe...then was threatened with the lawsuit.

I can't even fathom what grounds they think they have to sue you Tom.

Also, for those comparing PGS...they now include a disclaimer on the product pages of all builders who opt out of the online sales, which is a LOT of them. So yeah, they actively advertise the sale percentage, but it's only good on so many products.

I've held off a long time from talking about this stuff...I'm not pushing for a boycott, or asking people to do anything...I just want 1) My users to know what's going on, and 2) For other small builders to be aware of these things/risks.

JuJo wrote:I noticed that PGS now has an option to ship pedals priority in a large envelope. At the risk of sounding hypocritical I am actually considering going this route, but because they are up front about it and the savings are on my end. I feel it is entirely different than paying the full rate for first class international and then finding out your pedal wasn't protected in a first class manner for the shipping.

Depending on the build, I ship some pedals in the waterproof priority envelopes. (My pedals are meant to be stepped on and will arrive mint!) Every pedal gets double-wrapped, boxed, then wrapped again. If it's painted or international, it gets double-boxed. For me, this comes down to knowing your products, knowing that painted pedals and international pedals could benefit from extra protection. But the rest of my builds had better withstand 2-3 days in a mail truck or they're not going to last years on pedalboards!

Tom Dalton wrote:Depending on the build, I ship some pedals in the waterproof priority envelopes. (My pedals are meant to be stepped on and will arrive mint!) Every pedal gets double-wrapped, boxed, then wrapped again. If it's painted or international, it gets double-boxed. For me, this comes down to knowing your products, knowing that painted pedals and international pedals could benefit from extra protection. But the rest of my builds had better withstand 2-3 days in a mail truck or they're not going to last years on pedalboards!

Fair enough, and I've never had an issue with a pedal showing up damaged, but to me, a pedal, wrapped once in bubblewrap, bouncing around in an oversized box for a week and a half across borders and through the hands of various shipping agents with varying degrees of pride/satisfaction in their work isn't really acceptable. Particularly when I am giving an on online distributor my money for essentially taking a packaged object (in this case then throwing away that packaging and repackaging very poorly) and sending it to USPS to complete it's journey. I don't think it's too much to ask that the box be filled with something.

In the case of the envelope, it doesn't terribly bother me to have a pedal in a box, placed in an envelope, but given the $20+ difference I see with PGS using this method, It would appear that I am paying full price for a better service, and getting the bargain treatment. Also, doublewrapped, boxed, wrapped again in an envelope isnt the same thing as pedal in cardbord box in envelope. I could live with that, and I wouldn't say the pedals I received in envelopes were particularly waterproof given that the envelope was already starting to rip by the time it got to me. I should go digging through my pedal boxes to confirm, but it may have even been as bad as pedal in envelope, then ship.

Really, consistency is key here, too. For the set price I recieved one standard and I was happy. Subsequently I have received several different standards, most of which not up to the initial standard, for the same price. This gives me decreasing trust in the person I am buying from to the point where I go back to paying an extra $10 to have it shipped a longer distance in a manner I can predict and trust.

Edit: the envelope option that was there at my last visit is no longer available to me. Guess that solves my dilemma, I would most likely opt to pay extra for a box anyway.

What a bunch of cocks. Tom you don't have to ask. I was already pissed off at them anyway. I'm so tired of paying for bad customer service. They are a dime a dozen company anyway. FUCK THEM

So glad those fucks haven't had any of my business.

Looks like they just slashed all the SS/BS pedals on clearance too. I'm assuming for a similar reason.

Sucks, but if they keep doing this, maybe more builders will follow suit, and leave Prymaxe high and dry.

kaeth wrote:Looks like they just slashed all the SS/BS pedals on clearance too. I'm assuming for a similar reason.

Sucks, but if they keep doing this, maybe more builders will follow suit, and leave Prymaxe high and dry.

hmmm interesting. all i had to do was give some thoughts in this thread!

This is all part of some cutting edge business strategy that we couldn't possibly understand.

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Guys, if this whole thing upsets you, please, do not shop at walmart.
Just saying.

Are you saying you shop at Walmart?

Amazon, Walmart and Prymaxe all do the same thing to their suppliers. That's why a lot of Walmart's stuff's lower quality. That's why some things you get from amazon.com have special "online packaging." They all try to use their market power to put pressure on their suppliers for a lower price.

AxAxSxS wrote:Guys, if this whole thing upsets you, please, do not shop at walmart.
Just saying.

I see your point, but this is about members of a community that we're all a part of getting boned. Think about it: you read an article about bullying in schools. Get bored half way through and read something else. Your kid gets bullied at school and you look up Tonya Harding's number.

I think the reactions here have been fairly level headed all things considered.