Esoterics // Superstition

[Derelict78]

Im not knocking LaVey or anything he was really good at taking other peoples ideas and wording it so anyone could understand.

[gunslinger_burrito]

Yeah, I gotcha. I think we're mostly on the same page here.

[devnulljp]

I seriously LOVE Neil DeGrasse Tyson
dude cracks me the fuck up while he teaches

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDLrwwOxnaA[/youtube]

[alexa.]

I think made up bullshit and lack of critical thinking skills are dangerous. I'm surrounded by people who just believe homeopathy is a great way to treat illness and vaccines are evil and a host of other new age fluff that have real-world consequences.

Ok. You know what I don't get? People who think homeopathy is the greatest evil ever when hunger is running rampant across the world, when obesity is at large, when people get fired and live in poverty cuz the government can't set their record straight.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJQzH8X9fCw[/youtube]

Critical thinking, use of logic, yeah, what the fuck? Believing in astrology is BAD, but letting your government slowly take your rights is A-OK!
That's the thing I don't get.

The grand problem of the world currently is not homeopathy, or astrology, or UFOs or anything like that, it's faulty logic, it's the lack of creative problem solving, it's the general inability to have a bigger perspective of things and it's the inability to see the long-term consequences of actions.

We're not just nations or races, we're members of an ecosystem of a planet, and if we don't grasp that concept within the next few years, we're fucked.
THAT's what we need to learn, that's what we have to fight for, that's what we have to steer our governments into realizing.
We're all in this together, and we better start acting like it.

There are enough alternatives to the system we're living in now, we just have to wake up and start implementing them.

[jfrey]

Ok. You know what I don't get? People who think homeopathy is the greatest evil ever when hunger is running rampant across the world, when obesity is at large, when people get fired and live in poverty cuz the government can't set their record straight.

Kind of depends how you look at it. I view stupidity - or if not stupidity, then perhaps the tolerance of stupidity - as the greatest of all evils. In that sense, it is - I think - the root of most problems in the world. Belief in homeopathy - which is by the way not the same as what most people think of as homeopathy - is just one of a multitude of symptoms.

I think though, that blaming the government for everything is sort of a cop out. Surely governments are responsible for tons of problems, but the truth is that people - and not the government - are individually responsible for most of the problems they lay at the feet of their governments. Health is an issue that for the most part, each individual must address themselves. Instead of increased legislation on things like food, people should take responsibility for their own health. And, they won't so long as their are any safety nets, or anyone else to blame. Because of this, I don't think it's an issue that should be addressed at all. Let people take the consequences of their actions.

Keeping your job is by the same token a persons own responsibility - 99% of the time. Sometimes a company goes out of business, and yeah then you can't help it, but that's really a minuscule percent of cases.

[alexa.]

Kind of depends how you look at it. I view stupidity - or if not stupidity, then perhaps the tolerance of stupidity - as the greatest of all evils. In that sense, it is - I think - the root of most problems in the world. Belief in homeopathy - which is by the way not the same as what most people think of as homeopathy - is just one of a multitude of symptoms.

Yes, exactly, a symptom, not the disease. Also, you must understand that there are people who are smart, educated, know how to think logically, who know how to use their brain, and still 'believe' certain things to be true. Stigmatizing them is also wrong.
We should just simply educate the people in proper use of the brain, logic, and let the decision of the belief up to them.
Does it matter if a person believes in astrology, krishna, space monkeys or the higgs bozon, if they are humane, if their practical life is extended in the direction to share education like Khan Academy, if they want to show the meaningfulness of some spiritual teachings that have been telling us "we're one" all along? And we are one, one ecosystem, we're all connected and almost every decision a person makes in his life shapes the world.

I think though, that blaming the government for everything is sort of a cop out. Surely governments are responsible for tons of problems, but the truth is that people - and not the government - are individually responsible for most of the problems they lay at the feet of their governments. Health is an issue that for the most part, each individual must address themselves. Instead of increased legislation on things like food, people should take responsibility for their own health. And, they won't so long as their are any safety nets, or anyone else to blame. Because of this, I don't think it's an issue that should be addressed at all. Let people take the consequences of their actions.

I didn't say that the government is the only guilty party, all the people who support it or 'play the game' so to speak, are guilty too. There's plenty of guilt to be thrown around, but there's no practical use of it. I think we should apply to our governments cuz they are the ones that can make the greatest possible impact in the shortest amount of time.
People can't take care of their health properly if their government is cutting their salary and letting inexpensive food on the market that is not healthy for them. For instance, people in Croatia are fat, but not because they eat too much, but cuz they eat cheap bullshit. They would eat healthy, but healthy has become a privilege of the wealthy. See the general problem I'm talking about?

And the symptom of the "faulty logic, lack of creative problem solving, general inability to have a bigger perspective of things and the inability to see the long-term consequences of actions" problem is that the people are saying "that's normal", or "we should be happy we have anything at all". Well yeah, but this is not about greed. This is about the problem that (our) governments have literally robbed the complete state, destroyed the industry, and we all know who did it, it's obvious, but nobody is lifting a finger. They are even supporting it indirectly.

We need to solve the "faulty logic, lack of creative problem solving, general inability to have a bigger perspective of things and the inability to see the long-term consequences of actions" problem is that the people are saying "that's normal" problem, the consequences aren't the true problem.

[jfrey]

Yes, exactly, a symptom, not the disease. Also, you must understand that there are people who are smart, educated, know how to think logically, who know how to use their brain, and still 'believe' certain things to be true. Stigmatizing them is also wrong.
We should just simply educate the people in proper use of the brain, logic, and let the decision of the belief up to them.
Does it matter if a person believes in astrology, krishna, space monkeys or the higgs bozon, if they are humane, if their practical life is extended in the direction to share education like Khan Academy, if they want to show the meaningfulness of some spiritual teachings that have been telling us "we're one" all along? And we are one, one ecosystem, we're all connected and almost every decision a person makes in his life shapes the world.

I used to be right on page with you. In the past few years though I've decided that no, it isn't ok for people to believe whatever they want. There is reality, and then there is everything else. There isn't any other way to slice it. I think that even a correct answer should be considered wrong if the reasoning behind it is faulty.

[bigchiefbc]

The main problem with homeopathy (and basically all "alternative medicine") is that people often put off real treatment to try it or some other "natural" remedies that are all hogwash and in the meantime blow through money while their medical problems get worse and worse. It causes real harm and the companies that peddle that horseshit cause real people to die in situations where a real medical intervention may have saved them.

[alexa.]

I used to be right on page with you. In the past few years though I've decided that no, it isn't ok for people to believe whatever they want. There is reality, and then there is everything else. There isn't any other way to slice it. I think that even a correct answer should be considered wrong if the reasoning behind it is faulty.

That's kinda hardcore. If we step on the ball and admit we know really only a small portion of reality and most of the things we know are in the domain of the physical interactions of matter; it leaves us with a dilemma. Who would you give the authority to? Who would decide what's right to think and what's not? Witch hunts allover again.

The main problem with homeopathy (and basically all "alternative medicine") is that people often put off real treatment to try it or some other "natural" remedies that are all hogwash and in the meantime blow through money while their medical problems get worse and worse. It causes real harm and the companies that peddle that horseshit cause real people to die in situations where a real medical intervention may have saved them.

Well sure, but how is that different to governments letting in cheap unhealthy food while cutting peoples paychecks, making them almost forced to eat unhealthy food?
Also, the "harm" of the homeopathy side is in the domain of free will, the "harm" that the government does is too, but most of the people are socially conditioned to believe it isn't. Then tell me, which one is more dangerous of a threat and what should we really be fighting?

[Derelict78]

I used to be right on page with you. In the past few years though I've decided that no, it isn't ok for people to believe whatever they want. There is reality, and then there is everything else. There isn't any other way to slice it. I think that even a correct answer should be considered wrong if the reasoning behind it is faulty.

Everyones reality is different.
If it is not OK for people to believe whatever they want than the terrorists have won so to speak
Who says what everyone has to believe? You? the Government? Scientists? which ones?
Belief is A powerful thing hell look at the placebo effect.

[Derelict78]

Yes homeopathy may be quack medicine but no one HAS to use it. Free will trumps all as far as I am concerned. The best answer to all of this is better critical thinking in schools.

[Derelict78]

real people to die in situations where a real medical intervention may have saved them.

survival of the fittest

[jfrey]

I'm not saying you prosecute - or persecute - people for their beliefs. I'm just saying that no one should act like it's ok for people to believe things that are false, or otherwise patently ridiculous.

And no, people do not have their own realities. That isn't what reality is. By definition, that is the antithesis of reality. What is, is. People may perceive reality differently, but that doesn't change the fact of things. The sky is the same colour whether it looks to you red or blue.

NOTE: If anyone says something about how colour depends on something seeing it, so it really is different if you see it different, I will find you and slap you irl. The wavelength doesn't change regardless of how you see it.

But, to quote Sam Harris, “If someone disagrees with you all you can do is appeal to scientific values and if he doesn’t share those values the conversation is over. If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument are you going to provide to show the importance of logic?”

As I have said earlier though, please refer to these videos:

NSFW: show

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KayBys8gaJY[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww[/youtube]

[Derelict78]

People may perceive reality differently,

This is what I am saying
your life experience is different than mine so your reality is different than mine. This goes beyond physical things like the sky is blue,
you may think something is bad or "evil" but that does not mean it IS just that in your view of reality it is. This is why imposing your will or "reality" on someone else
is a big no no

[jfrey]

you may think something is bad or "evil" but that does not mean it IS just that in your view of reality it is. This is why imposing your will or "reality" on someone else
is a big no no

Refer to video #4.