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race to the bottom practices = everyone loses in the end.

onyxrhino wrote:I don't see anything underhanded going on here.

Have you read the same thread as the rest of ILF?

smallsnd/bigsnd wrote:race to the bottom practices = everyone loses in the end.

Perhaps. But that's basically capitalism. I just don't get all the hate for this instance in particular.

Maybe you would prefer to buy direct from the builder or pay a premium. That's cool.

I mostly buy everything used anyway. The only pedal I ever bought from Prymaxe was a Fuck Overdrive. I would have just waited and bought one used, but at 15% off and with the ability to return it, I thought I might as well give it a shot. And it's a great pedal. But, if it hadn't been 15% off, I probably would have just waited and bought it used.

goroth wrote:

onyxrhino wrote:I don't see anything underhanded going on here.

Have you read the same thread as the rest of ILF?

I read Tom's thread. He wasn't happy with them always offering 15% off. If there is another problem or if they have forced him to supply them with pedals somehow, I guess I missed it, sorry.

It was less the fact that they were always 15% off and more the fact that they wanted a bigger discount on their pedals so they could do the 15% off but keep their margins the same, thus reducing the builders profit margins, and if his margins drop too low he will stop building.

Ancient Astronaught wrote:It was less the fact that they were always 15% off and more the fact that they wanted a bigger discount on their pedals so they could do the 15% off but keep their margins the same, thus reducing the builders profit margins, and if his margins drop too low he will stop building.

So, they asked if they could get something cheaper and he told them "no"? Okay. Again, I just don't see the drama here.

NVM I'm not in a fightin mood today.....

not supplying the retailer in question is a fix to only one of the problems and the larger one still remains - that of undercutting other businesses and basically forcing them to adopt the same practices or risk losing potential sales, while essentially creating a new standard price which is 15% lower than what the manufacturer originally wants.

listen to the man. his cat is made of PIZZA.

They are essentially destroying the market for every retailer of pedals by offering a lower price. Good for customers sure, but remember there are two parties involved. The suppliers are being shafted and their service has gone way down hill in recent months.

Not sure why anyone would argue in their favor. Business or not, it's a matter of right and wrong. But go ahead and support big business if you will. Just means you don't give a flying fuck about the people behind the work. Only about saving a buck.

onyxrhino wrote:

smallsnd/bigsnd wrote:race to the bottom practices = everyone loses in the end.

Perhaps. But that's basically capitalism. I just don't get all the hate for this instance in particular.

Maybe you would prefer to buy direct from the builder or pay a premium. That's cool.

I mostly buy everything used anyway. The only pedal I ever bought from Prymaxe was a Fuck Overdrive. I would have just waited and bought one used, but at 15% off and with the ability to return it, I thought I might as well give it a shot. And it's a great pedal. But, if it hadn't been 15% off, I probably would have just waited and bought it used.

understandable to want to save a few bucks and everyone does it at some point. it's true... options are good. though eventually everyone needs to start cutting corners to make the same money when slashing prices here and there and even though the consumer may not pay directly, someone is bearing the brunt of those cuts.

onyxrhino wrote: The only pedal I ever bought from Prymaxe was a Fuck Overdrive. I would have just waited and bought one used, but at 15% off and with the ability to return it, I thought I might as well give it a shot. And it's a great pedal. But, if it hadn't been 15% off, I probably would have just waited and bought it used.

After reading these post i came to a couple conclusions. Conclusion a. When selling pedals i have to automatically take off 40% if i want to expect bids bc of pyramaxe's 15% Conclusion b. I am guilty of not buying other used pedals and buying from pyramaxe bc it was cheaper (in my own personal world prymaxe 15% effects greatly, from selling stand point and a buying stand point. now i wont use pryamaxe but they deff were creating the market on prices. i would almost always buy from them because they were cheaper new than most used and i got many haggling emails when selling something explaining that they could buy the pedal new just 30 dollars more from prymaxe etc etc.) if you can agree with these conclusions its easy to see why builders would be pissed off, pyramaxe is essentially taking away the pricing power from them and cutting into profits. and to as we as a community would be mad in a country that supports capitalism, i know i have only been a contributor to ilf for a short time but a long time lurker, and in my short time posts ryan from dr. scientist has been awesome to me, and doug from mid-fi has just been freaking amazing.small builders means that they usually have awesome customer service, and that they are a small operation, the idea of taking profits from nice guys that have helped me out and stuff just dosent settle right with me.

Honestly i saw this stuff coming a mile away. Especially with the online dealers. They all sell the same exact pedals so it seems like pricecutting is really the only way to compete. The only way youre going to eliminate this is having a gentlemans agreement that only certain dealers will sell certain brands or that certain models/finishes/features will be dealer exclusive. It was easier 7 or 8 years ago when pedal stores were still pretty quirky and specialized in certain types of effects and companies, but with everyone getting to the point where their stock looks the exact same, price is the only incentive to shop at one vs another. I understand that shady business is 100% prymaxes fault and Thom is my bro for life, but honestly pedal makers are at fault here too. You keep selling the same pedal with the same finish to every single dealer in the world and pretty soon people are going to stop buying your pedals new. If makers want to stop this shit from happening theyre going to have to limit the availability of their brands. Or just sell direct.

For instance, a simple google search for a dwarfcraft ECT shows 10 different US retailers selling the pedal in the exact same finish for the exact same price just on the first three pages. This may be alright now when pedals are still gaining popularity but this is a niche market and supply is already starting to creep up on demand. It looks like all the dealers have several in stock so we can assume they arent exactly flying off shelves. Whats going to happen in a couple months or a year when they still havent sold out of ETCs??? Theyre going to have to put them on sale eventually just to survive.

I understand being a small builder and wanting to keep the value on your product up, but you have just as much responsibility to maintain value as the dealer does, and I would personally say more. I think Thom and to a lesser extent ryan from dr sci do a great job of this by varying finishes and features every so often but it looks like every other small builder is completely ignoring this and flooding the market with their pedals. Its just kindof a shame that guys like Thom pay the price.

smallsnd/bigsnd wrote:not supplying the retailer in question is a fix to only one of the problems and the larger one still remains - that of undercutting other businesses and basically forcing them to adopt the same practices or risk losing potential sales, while essentially creating a new standard price which is 15% lower than what the manufacturer originally wants.

Do builders price the goods from what they cost to build and add trade and/or retailer margin or just pitch at what the market will pay and see what happens? With regard to the coupons, I would have though most people would put the declared retail price a little higher to make the most of the initial launch and then be able to deal the rest away or budget for a little marketing/site improvements/mailing lists etc in that price?

The nature of the product usually means no like for like so competition is not such an issue I would have thought?

THEBEERHAMMER wrote: I understand being a small builder and wanting to keep the value on your product up, but you have just as much responsibility to maintain value as the dealer does, and I would personally say more. I think Thom and to a lesser extent ryan from dr sci do a great job of this by varying finishes and features every so often but it looks like every other small builder is completely ignoring this and flooding the market with their pedals. Its just kindof a shame that guys like Thom pay the price.

excellent point.

muttlegs wrote:

smallsnd/bigsnd wrote:not supplying the retailer in question is a fix to only one of the problems and the larger one still remains - that of undercutting other businesses and basically forcing them to adopt the same practices or risk losing potential sales, while essentially creating a new standard price which is 15% lower than what the manufacturer originally wants.

Do builders price the goods from what they cost to build and add trade and/or retailer margin or just pitch at what the market will pay and see what happens? With regard to the coupons, I would have though most people would put the declared retail price a little higher to make the most of the initial launch and then be able to deal the rest away or budget for a little marketing/site improvements/mailing lists etc in that price?

The nature of the product usually means no like for like so competition is not such an issue I would have thought?

i'm not exactly sure i completely understand all of your questions, but yes builders (i guess i can only speak for myself here) price goods with wholesale cuts in mind as well as what the market will bear.