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warwick.hoy wrote:Paid or not doesn't really change the fact that most Americans have been fleeced in one form or another.

No one has forced people to consume to be blunt. No one put a gun to their heads and made the middle class run up huge debt, buy a new car ever five years whether they needed it or not, to hire out professionals to fix every little thing that people used to do for themselves, or buy disposable items for a tiny savings over more durable ones.

You can give everybody a pile of bricks. Some people will build something. Some will beat their neighbors bloody with them. Others will trade the pile of bricks for a pimp hat or a bag of hash.]

Do you blame a few capitalists for taking advantage of a get even richer quick scheme or do you blame the masses for allowing themselves to be duped by a highly illusioned and fabricated American Dream?

I'll take door #3: I blame the people who orchestrated this fiasco. It's distracting from the real elephant in the room: who is going to pay for medical care for everyone and their brother with aging boomers and the mass expansion of Medicaid in 2014?

Can blame the rich all we want, but the basic problem won't be fixed. Can restructure how investment is done, further scaring money out of the market at a time we can ill afford more silliness, or do the equivalent of fixing the lawn mower while the house burns.

That said, it was a brilliant move not because of the chance of success of this movement but rather because it will desensitize the public to riots and demonstrations, open the door to unprecedented police powers, and let the same people profit all over again.

That was the effective result of the 60s riots after the DNC convention in '68.

And these demonstrations will make any protests over the incoming budget cuts thanks to the summer of gov't shutdown stupidity just more of the same.

This will soon be 'this sucks, change it' television.

rfurtkamp wrote:No one has forced people to consume to be blunt. No one put a gun to their heads and made the middle class run up huge debt, buy a new car ever five years whether they needed it or not, to hire out professionals to fix every little thing that people used to do for themselves, or buy disposable items for a tiny savings over more durable ones.

You can give everybody a pile of bricks. Some people will build something. Some will beat their neighbors bloody with them. Others will trade the pile of bricks for a pimp hat or a bag of hash.

I'll take door #3: I blame the people who orchestrated this fiasco. It's distracting from the real elephant in the room: who is going to pay for medical care for everyone and their brother with aging boomers and the mass expansion of Medicaid in 2014?

Can blame the rich all we want, but the basic problem won't be fixed. Can restructure how investment is done, further scaring money out of the market at a time we can ill afford more silliness, or do the equivalent of fixing the lawn mower while the house burns.

That said, it was a brilliant move not because of the chance of success of this movement but rather because it will desensitize the public to riots and demonstrations, open the door to unprecedented police powers, and let the same people profit all over again.

That was the effective result of the 60s riots after the DNC convention in '68.

And these demonstrations will make any protests over the incoming budget cuts thanks to the summer of gov't shutdown stupidity just more of the same.

This will soon be 'this sucks, change it' television.

QFT.

I think the biggest sticking point to me is protestors saying the following:

"The rich need to pay higher taxes. It's only fair that they pay their fair share. We want equality."

Which BY DEFINITION is inequality. For fucks sake, are people really that stupid nowadays? If you want to raise taxes on the rich that's fine and dandy, I really don't give a fuck if that's what you want. Just don't do it in the name of equality when you clearly don't understand what the fuck you are saying.

rfurtkamp wrote:No one has forced people to consume to be blunt. No one put a gun to their heads and made the middle class run up huge debt, buy a neu aw car ever five years whether they needed it or not, to hire out professionals to fix every little thing that people used to do for themselves, or buy disposable items for a tiny savings over more durable ones.

You are right,...no one put a gun to their heads,....instead the methods of persuasion are far more sinister and subversive. Someone sticks a gun in your face you know what to expect. But when the powers that be rob people of any sort of meaningful education then feed people full of propaganda about the American Dream and what success is,...and the only way to attain that is pay for further meaningless education (in which the job market has have dried up by the time they graduate) or become a criminal; the sheep masses have no idea what the fuck is happening to them. When the fabricated American Dream requires both parents to work robbing a child of any sort of parenting then all that does is self perpetuate the cycle. Make no mistake,...people are being lied to and the lie is so convincing,...the con so well thought out,...that people believe it unquestioningly.

RE: The education system. I didn't glean the ability to foil and factor; nor regurgitate historical propaganda tidbits from my High School education (I can learn that shit on my own), but what I did learn was the ability to think critically and question authority. I gained the ability to not conform. 99% of my graduating class of 100 either went (or at least got accepted) to college or joined the military,...guess who the 1% is (a little ironic)? Guess who is also not straddled with student loan debt,...credit card debt,...a mortgage,....a 5 dollar a month checking account from BofA? Guess who rents a decent house, drives a suitable car that he saved up to buy, who has a job that he loves (albeit not very high paying), who has his own definition of success. I feel like I might be the only one that go that.

People are stupid with their money and with confusing wants with needs. They too often prioritize wants and neglect needs. I'm with you on this fact and I'm with you and people being foolish with their money and going for the quick fix instead of the solid investment (refer to earlier posts of mine in this thread). I don't think it's entirely their fault.

RE: Riots and the US turning into a Police State,...while I can see where you are going with this (see homeland security,...the "patriot" act, etc etc)....I think we have too many gun nuts and constitutionalists in this country to allow any sort of unopposed Police takeover happen, do we need more? Yes. Do some of those gun nuts need to refocus their gun nuttery in the right direction towards the real danger (as opposed to phantom urban invaders and child molestors)? Most definitely.

Whether or not America turns into a police state that remains to be seen,...but I think there is more and more a distrust of the police. Maybe I'm in denial,...but I don't see it happening,...at least not without a fight.

rfurtkamp wrote:I'm aware of the 'paid volunteer' concept. I should note it comes out now, as the last-ditch attempt to justify what Paul is saying.

Had you gone that route from the get-go, we'd be having a different conversation now.

But the fact is he's paid something for his work. He's not a volunteer in the classical sense of the word.

It's one possibility, yes. But again, you insisted he wasn't paid, "but you're really stretching to say he admitted to being paid to protest."

And now, he's a paid volunteer.

Understand why I find the slope a bit slippery here that you're taking?

... I never said he was paid to protest... I said he worked as a full time volunteer. And how can you say I'm just bringing it up now? You didn't understand the term "Full-time volunteer" so I clarified it.

I still insist that he didn't say he was paid to protest. He was describing what he was doing for work-- which was a separate thing. He went into the details to show that he DID work. Hence why he mentioned the people that say "you don't want to work."

warwick.hoy wrote:You are right,...no one put a gun to their heads,....instead the methods of persuasion are far more sinister and subversive.

The thing is that absent the proverbial gun to the head, it's the person's choice. Equal opportunity does not net equal results for everyone.

But when the powers that be rob people of any sort of meaningful education

Was more important to teach about minority studies, world culture, and alternative family structures than trade skills; it's a clear failure of the system here to be honest, but in the name of diversity and tolerance and the same sort of false equality the protesters are out looking for, we gave up educating for trade, educating for the future, and traded it for educating that Suzy has Two Mommies and other agenda-driven silliness.

Tax dollars have been utterly wasted for several generations now not providing education, but nobody's been marching in the streets over that.

Then again, parents are free to home school and take matters into their own hands - or do supplementary education outside of what the system teaches.

then feed people full of propaganda about the American Dream and what success is,...

Part of that is also feeding them the 'you are special, you can be anything' crap - and the idea that the average citizen is somehow owed something. The protests are a manifestation of the propaganda around the American dream: "I'm prosperous, but those rich people have more and I want my job and education and the two car garage." It's not a rejection of it; it's a manifestation.

The genuine poor aren't out there. It's the middle class looking for more.

and the only way to attain that is pay for further meaningless education (in which the job market has have dried up by the time they graduate) or become a criminal; the sheep masses have no idea what the fuck is happening to them. When the fabricated American Dream requires both parents to work robbing a child of any sort of parenting then all that does is self perpetuate the cycle.

The protests perpetuate that cycle; that somehow, somewhere there's someone keeping every special person down.

Make no mistake,...people are being lied to and the lie is so convincing,...the con so well thought out,...that people believe it unquestioningly.

And that's how you get people supporting this movement to be honest. Everyone wants to believe that there is some unseen force or evil keeping them down. It's now corporations instead of the hook-beaked Jews of the 1920s in Europe (and not just Germany) any more.

Nobody is willing to look in the mirror and say "I am 99% of the problem."

RE: The education system. I didn't glean the ability to foil and factor; nor regurgitate historical propaganda tidbits from my High School education (I can learn that shit on my own), but what I did learn was the ability to think critically and question authority. I gained the ability to not conform. 99% of my graduating class of 100 either went (or at least got accepted) to college or joined the military,...guess who the 1% is (a little ironic)?

The 1% is a fabrication, the Emmanuel Goldstein of the protester's Oceania.

The actual people outside the system are generally contentedly living their lives on their own terms. The vagaries of finance and credit ratings and "corporate overlords" don't even matter.

Guess who is also not straddled with student loan debt,...credit card debt,...a mortgage,....a 5 dollar a month checking account from BofA? Guess who rents a decent house, drives a suitable car that he saved up to buy, who has a job that he loves (albeit not very high paying), who has his own definition of success. I feel like I might be the only one that go that.

I have everyhing I need. I have the vast majority of things i want. I got sick five or so years ago, it's incurable, nothing that can be done to even realistically ameliorate the symptoms, and sooner rather than later I'll die in a haze of pain and infection. The corporate overlords have no hold here; they're nothing more than ghosts.

People are stupid with their money and with confusing wants with needs. They too often prioritize wants and neglect needs. I'm with you on this fact and I'm with you and people being foolish with their money and going for the quick fix instead of the solid investment (refer to earlier posts of mine in this thread). I don't think it's entirely their fault.

I assume that people responsible enough to sign a contract can live with the consequences. Freedom isn't free, beyond the jingoistic military service sense of the term. Some people will do stupid things, and it *is* their fault. Not an invisible overlord's.

RE: Riots and the US turning into a Police State,...while I can see where you are going with this (see homeland security,...the "patriot" act, etc etc)....I think we have too many gun nuts and constitutionalists in this country to allow any sort of unopposed Police takeover happen, do we need more? Yes. Do some of those gun nuts need to refocus their gun nuttery in the right direction towards the real danger (as opposed to phantom urban invaders and child molestors)? Most definitely.

The thing is the gun nuts and constitutionalists aren't going to stop the police from plowing these protesters down. We pick our fights. This isn't us. I'm one of those evil gun nuts; I have NFA weapons (and I sense you're off to google) and the training to use them.

It isn't anywhere near the time for the cartridge box. It isn't time for revolution, but the protesters pulled that card out already.

I'm not in Idaho because I loved the snow. I saw this coming twenty years ago and got out like a smart person.

Whether or not America turns into a police state that remains to be seen,...but I think there is more and more a distrust of the police. Maybe I'm in denial,...but I don't see it happening,...at least not without a fight.

No one will fight it. Nobody cared about Ruby Ridge or Waco. Nobody cared about the gutting of the Bill of Rights and the destruction of the Second Amendment back in '34.

And anyone who would will never talk about it.

Silence is golden.

best goddamned post yet

My god this thread is so full of smug bullshit it might suffocate all of ILF.

This thread is sick. I actually read through all of this to make up my mind if I wanted to join in the demo on the other side of town.

plhogan wrote:My god this thread is so full of smug bullshit it might suffocate all of ILF.

ILF has dealt with bullshit before. That's the beauty of this forum - even without heavy moderating, restrictions and shit this forum goes strong. I'll buy a round of free speech for all fuzz loving brosephs on board.

Besides, everybody disagreeing with me is plain wrong, and I'm sitting on the fuzzy proof.

phantasmagorovich wrote:This thread is sick.

I agree with this... and have decided to unagree with all I agree with, sorry guys but you all hit my annoyance limit
Personally I am not against the protesters and really in the end hope the whole thing really... later...

Guh... again?

Sorry, guys. My bad. : (

Has any legislation been introduced yet?

Proposed?

Or are we still on the whole "urban camping" thing?

It's a cool idea, but they're fucking it up by politicizing it.

YIPPIE!

Still camping.

Burning Man was too damn hot.

Rainbow didn't have WiFi.

The NBA's on strike.

The proles had to do something.