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The first one, sort of. I haven't seen too many people saying "wahhh we aren't rich so they shouldn't be ether!", no matter how often it's framed that way. It's people upset about things like subsides for oil companies, tax breaks aimed at people that don't need them, and the continuously increasing wealth gap. Some of them have libertarian views, some socialist, some don't really have any real views other than something has to change.

I don't think it's hard to find the message. I just think people are trying to make it more complicated than it is. It's a lot of people that thing something needs to change-- even if they don't quite agree on how that change should happen.

They're in Wall St. just because it's become synonymous with the big banks and such (and some have their headquarters or major office building there).

is the idea behind the protest
"get rid of corruption in the marketplace"
or
"we're able to support ourselves but we aren't as rich, a bloo bloo bloo"

Think it's a mixed message of both to be honest.

The "get rid of the corruption" in the marketplace got distinctively mixed message the minute the unions joined in last week - they're as complicit in wrecking the economy and exploiting the masses as anyone at this point. Case in point, UAW's 2 tier wage structure ("you were in, enjoy twice the pay plus retain all benefits" vs a new hire with caps and no benefits), the exemption in the 30% medical insurance tax for unions until 2018 and beyond once it kicks in in 2014, et cetera.

The complicit parties aren't just the megacorps and the exploitation outside that realm is essentially ignored.

And the latter is essentially "We want ours, but you can't have yours" - the people doing this forget that corporations are essentially unions of those who have chosen to invest their money, retirement, et cetera, in something.

Yes, student loan debt sucks. The fact that there's an inescaple debt outside a court judgement for child support and the like tied to it is inexcusable, but nobody's complained or marched in the streets about how that exploited and kept down the poor and marginalized who could not find work, couldn't finish school because of money issues, loan caps, or the like, and this change was put in under Clinton. The only reason that the protesters care now is the gravy train of "I have a degree, so I get mine" is at least on hold for the forseeable future.

Cynical, yes, but these issues haven't magically gotten worse in the last few years - they've been there for decades, and until it slammed home to Timmy the Grad Degree holder nobody gave a shit. No cost controls on medical care, no tort reform, no stopping the college creep both of expected educational level for mediocre jobs and tuition, and the inability to want to deal with the retirement of the Boomer generation who have known themselves the country goes bankrupt when they retire for over 30 years - these aren't new issues.

The powderkeg here is that all it will take is one misstep, one dumb mini-riot, staged or otherwise, and this movement is over and any chance of meaningful reform is toast beyond toast. That one misstep, and the chances of it occurring increase exponentially the longer this goes on, will kill any chance for a hope of bipartisan reform on anything - the winners in this will be the idiot wing of the Republican Party who are willing to let the poor die in the streets, hungry, because class warfare now radiates down and up from the middle class, blasting both the poor and the rich. Today's Occupy Wallstreeter is next decade's Tea Partier once they have assets and have taken their pound of flesh from whoever they can rip it from. And they'll do it again if we're dumb enough to give in to the mob.

rfurtkamp wrote:The "get rid of the corruption" in the marketplace got distinctively mixed message the minute the unions joined in last week - they're as complicit in wrecking the economy and exploiting the masses as anyone at this point. Case in point, UAW's 2 tier wage structure ("you were in, enjoy twice the pay plus retain all benefits" vs a new hire with caps and no benefits)

I think the first tier UAW people have forgotten that nobody owes them anything.

Everyone should have a problem with this. The poor because we're being shafted. The rich because it's an unsustainable system. Of course, like anything else of this magnitude there are a host of other problems, but seriously:

It's The Inequality, Stupid.

But they have the right to make money! If you don't have a job, it's your fault.


Unless you're a republican, then it's Obama's.



rfurtkamp touched on it, but let's acknowledge what our real problem is, old people. I vote the "retirement age" becomes the "extermination age." You know what I'm talking about

nad wrote:

Everyone should have a problem with this. The poor because we're being shafted. The rich because it's an unsustainable system. Of course, like anything else of this magnitude there are a host of other problems, but seriously:

It's The Inequality, Stupid.

Clearly you recognize the problems with that graph. Especially the two graphs juxtaposed together.

For the record: I agree with you, but that graph is fucked.

D.o.S. wrote:

nad wrote:

Everyone should have a problem with this. The poor because we're being shafted. The rich because it's an unsustainable system. Of course, like anything else of this magnitude there are a host of other problems, but seriously:

It's The Inequality, Stupid.

Clearly you recognize the problems with that graph. Especially the two graphs juxtaposed together.

For the record: I agree with you, but that graph is fucked.

Honestly, most graphs kinda blow. But they are so god damn eye catching!

nad wrote:It's The Inequality, Stupid.

this is the main cause to so many problems. It can't be talked away by saying everybody got equal opportunity blah blah.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrPGoPFRUdc[/youtube]

^^^^^^^
Love that post, sums it up for me. Opinions are like assholes.

guitmatt wrote:^^^^^^^
Love that post, sums it up for me. Opinions are like assholes.

Hope that guy isn't one of the paid protesters.

Then again, the original CL posting for paid protesters in NY didn't pay a living wage.

The irony involved is still making me snicker.

At least they're paying $22 an hour in Chicago.

Type in "Tea party" on Youtube and see what comes up. It's really easy to go to a protest/rally armed with a few talking points to make people look like idiots and/or select a couple of dim people out of the crowd. There are also tons of non-political examples of that on Youtube.

BTW, if you're talking about the Working Families Party's craigslist ad, they've done those for years. They even said in the ad they weren't hiring protesters. They're just a progressive group that hires people to do the legwork for progressive causes. And even if they were openly hiring protesters, a couple of shady acts doesn't discredit a whole movement.

Currently on the NY craigslist, there are no ads soliciting protesters.

Interview hit the conservative circuit this morning with a guy in Chicago claiming to have been hired for $22 a hour to protest in the middle of a much longer interview, and another with hiring Hispanics to hold signs in Spanish at DC. Depending on who funded it, where, and in what respects, it may well discredit the movement - it claims to have a purity that the 1% don't have. It's hard to reasonably protest Citizens United if the dark side of it's being used to your advantage.

And yes, the Tea Party people are often profoundly stupid, and people here and elsewhere have laughed at them for a long time for it - despite how easy it is to find a fool in a crowd, these kids don't deserve any special treatment.

rfurtkamp wrote:And yes, the Tea Party people are often profoundly stupid

Glenn Beck wrote:Capitalists, if you think that you can play footsies with these people, you're wrong. They will come for you and drag you into the streets and kill you...they're Marxist radicals...these guys are worse than Robespierre from the French Revolution...they'll kill everybody.

Blackened Soul wrote:

Glenn Beck wrote:Capitalists, if you think that you can play footsies with these people, you're wrong. They will come for you and drag you into the streets and kill you...they're Marxist radicals...these guys are worse than Robespierre from the French Revolution...they'll kill everybody.

Sounds reasonable to me. Is carpet bombing the bible belt allowed yet?