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As far as I'm aware, nobody on here or anywhere else thinks rape doesn't exist. I agree we shouldn't be surprised that it's so widespread and covered up/excused, but outrage and motivation should take the place of surprise once you know about the problem. Otherwise it's just presenting sexual assault as inevitable. Which I don't agree with. I don't think rape is an inevitability of coed social environments or evolution and I can't think of anything positive resulting from promoting that point of view.

Corey Y wrote: Otherwise it's just presenting sexual assault as inevitable. Which I don't agree with.

Well, then we simply disagree.

Corey Y wrote:I can't think of anything positive resulting from promoting that point of view.

Here's where I say: we should say it because it is true and will continue to be true for any foreseeable future. Ignoring the causality of any given problem has, to my knowledge, never brought anything good or long-lasting to the table.

My entire point in this thread was to create a dialog about the threat of sexual harassment, rape..etc.

I am a realist and know that sexual crimes will happen. Though I'm trying not to be a pessimist and say "well regardless of awareness there's nothing to be done. It is what it is". IMO that's a toxic way to think. I'm not saying anyone here is directly saying that, just pointing out how I feel.

I'd love to think that some of my childhood icons weren't pieces of shit. Why wouldn't I? I grew up listening to and watching these men and looked up to many of them.

It's sad that this kind of shit is a norm or presumable a norm. I don't accept that and never will. Regardless of how the rest of society sees it.

It's like the murder rate in KC, MO (where I'm from). People get shot every fucking day almost and die. Most folks around here could care less because it's just another victim of society. Bullshit. Let's work to change that. There has to be a way.

Also, here's a good way to try and understand cultural difference from country to country based on crime rates. I just did a comparison of Norway versus the United States and needless to say, we both have fucked up crime. It's crazy though that some of the numbers are so staggeringly different. You can compare any country. I think it will give you a window into why or how others view things as a whole. After all, we are all products of our environment.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... ates/Crime

Sociopaths, male and female, position themselves as gatekeepers/authority figures in order to generate opportunities to feed their appetites.
Scandals involving correctional facilities, esp for juveniles are on the horizon. All the institutional creeps who prey on troubled youth.
Less sinister but equally as troubling...I expect more stories involving swimming coaches, gymnastics, yoga & dance instructors, (obv gym teachers are a given). They're given the side-eye for good reason.

Corey Y wrote:There was an ex-friend and bandmate who I cut out of my life 15 or so years ago, who ended up getting convicted of child molestation and nobody knew until he was turning himself in on a "no contest" plea. I found out with some digging afterwards that the charge he was convicted of is only possible if you have a previous similar offense and I remembered him saying something about being on house arrest when he was 18 or 19 for something, but that it was "too painful to talk about, maybe someday". I had ignored some complaints about him groping girls at shows, then when I couldn't ignore a lot of his terrible behavior, just focused more on the lying and stealing that caused us to kick him out of our band at the time. The week we were going to kick him out was when he went to jail. Since then he's continually thrown all ages punk shows and hung around with teenagers and he's 40 now. There were some overt pedophilia things that we frankly just didn't clock or couldn't process (played off as thinking he had a weird sense of humor) that made too much sense in hindsight.

For about 5 years after we cut him out of our lives and made it a point to let EVERYONE who knew him socially know what was up, about half my friends in the music scene stood up for him and kept hanging out and doing bands with him. Then he ran afoul of several more terrible incidents (not just with kids or even sexual things, he was an all around POS) and slowly most of those people came around (not all of them though). Now all his friends are about 10-20 years younger than him and I know for a fact he moved several times without registering as as ex offender while he was still on parole/probation, I guess the authorities just didn't care. No idea if he's been arrested again, but I would be shocked if he hadn't done anything since then that could get him arrested.

Damn, that sucks dude. I hope he gets what should be coming to him.

I think it's important, crucial even, to acknowledge that sexual assault happens and is happening. I think the context in which you do that, how you do it and what you do with that knowledge/acceptance is the key though. Historically most of those acknowledgements center around the responsibility around the victim. Don't put yourself in this situation, don't be alone with these specific types of people, don't dress this way, don't act this way, don't go to these areas at these times, etc. and THAT I think is completely detrimental and doesn't prevent assaults. It treats sexual assault and abuse like a force of nature that happens and not a thing that individuals are doing to other people. When statement is released like "____ number of people are raped/sexually assaulted each year", instead of "____ number of people are committing rapes/sexual assault each year", you've automatically started creating a specific type of victim mentality and reaction from the public. That's why I think it's important to recognize predatory behavior, call it out, make it unacceptable and punish those that assault, but not to treat sexual assault like it's a natural consequence of biology or poor decisions on the part of the victims. A lot of victims of sexual assault, especially prolonged and repeated abuse, are children by family members, family friends, neighbors, people in authority like teachers, coaches, clergy. To think that could ever be prevented by a child is never going to help anyone. The best case scenario is you could raise your children to recognize and disclose common grooming/precursor type behaviors for sexual abuse, but that's never going to work 100% of the time and there are psychological reactions to assault and abuse that make people, especially children, act and react in ways that don't necessarily seem sensible or in their own self interest to others.

If you leave your wife/daughter/sister/mother/friends alone with me, I'm NEVER going to sexually assault her. If you teach boys that sexual assault is an undeniable aspect of their nature and that it's the responsibility of women to mitigate or prevent those impulses, you create people who don't view interpersonal interactions as matters of consent, but every action as permissible until denied or prevented in a very specific way. That's how you get situations both cultural and even legal, where someone argues that a sexual assault wasn't rape, because the victim didn't fight back. Even though if someone walked into your house and started taking your things, no one would say they weren't stealing, unless you specifically told them not to and fought them. That's what people mean when they use terms like "toxic masculinity". It's the idea that forcing sex on someone is someone is only wrong if they attempt to stop you, which is frankly insane. To think that there's any kind of perfect behavior that anyone can do to not get assaulted is not realistic, damaging to victims and counter productive to addressing the problem and preventing future assaults.

It's also worth pointing out that victims, predators and pairings vary across every gender combination. So the idea that sexual assault is the natural consequence of men and women socializing freely together makes even less sense in that context. There are some people who are psychopaths and are intent of victimizing people, but there are also other types of sexual assault that stem from people who are mentally and emotionally "normal" having very unhealthy and predatory cultural ideals about what's acceptable behavior regarding consent and sexuality with people they see as "below" them socially.

rustywire wrote:.I expect more stories involving swimming coaches, gymnastics, yoga & dance instructors,

Gymnastics blew open earlier this year.

http://nypost.com/2017/06/27/how-us-gym ... ual-abuse/

Corey Y wrote:There was an ex-friend and bandmate who I cut out of my life 15 or so years ago, who ended up getting convicted of child molestation and nobody knew until he was turning himself in on a "no contest" plea. I found out with some digging afterwards that the charge he was convicted of is only possible if you have a previous similar offense and I remembered him saying something about being on house arrest when he was 18 or 19 for something, but that it was "too painful to talk about, maybe someday". I had ignored some complaints about him groping girls at shows, then when I couldn't ignore a lot of his terrible behavior, just focused more on the lying and stealing that caused us to kick him out of our band at the time. The week we were going to kick him out was when he went to jail. Since then he's continually thrown all ages punk shows and hung around with teenagers and he's 40 now. There were some overt pedophilia things that we frankly just didn't clock or couldn't process (played off as thinking he had a weird sense of humor) that made too much sense in hindsight.

For about 5 years after we cut him out of our lives and made it a point to let EVERYONE who knew him socially know what was up, about half my friends in the music scene stood up for him and kept hanging out and doing bands with him. Then he ran afoul of several more terrible incidents (not just with kids or even sexual things, he was an all around POS) and slowly most of those people came around (not all of them though). Now all his friends are about 10-20 years younger than him and I know for a fact he moved several times without registering as as ex offender while he was still on parole/probation, I guess the authorities just didn't care. No idea if he's been arrested again, but I would be shocked if he hadn't done anything since then that could get him arrested.

Sorry I missed this.

So, I had a friend years ago who raped his sister. His father was a meth dealer and sold to all of us kids (16-18). I guess one night he was fucked up on meth and had been up probably a week and decided to rape his 8 year old sister. He was 18 at the time. She was fucking 8. I was in shock when I found out, just beside myself. This is a guy I considered one of my best friends. I used to hang with him constantly.

He went to jail for 3 years I think it was and is still a registered offender. I called him when he got out and asked him "why man, why would you do such a horrible fucking thing"? You know what he said? He said he never did that and it was all a lie. He said they set him up and he took the fall for his dad on meth sales. This is after I looked him up on the offender registry (thank God for those btw) and he went to prison for it. He had no qualms with telling me that it was all a lie. That he was convicted and served time for something that was lied about. Bull fucking shit.

I just looked him up today because of all this stuff going on. I do that from time to time with known sex offenders because honestly, I'd like to take a bat to them. He offended again. I shit you not, it was the same fucking year he got out. The same year he talked to me on the phone and told me "no man, that didn't happen". As far as I know, he's still in prison for that. I hope he rots there and in hell.

My mother was raped by her brother. My sisters were both raped by different men. My mother in law was raped by her brother. My ex-girlfriend was raped by her boss. My ex-girlfriends sister was raped by her step dad. Etc. I've known so many women that have been raped, that I just can't even begin to name them all.

Yet I have hope that the world will change in some fashion. I pray (because that's what I believe) that things won't stay this way. I want life to be better for people. I want to protect my loved ones and those that have been hurt.

This world can be a horrible and disgusting place, but I am still grateful for the chance to be apart of this world. Despite all the atrocities that have happened.

Man, I'm super fucking bummed out right now.

Jwar, I have had a similar experience with the guy I was talking about. He would lie straight to your face about something you SAW him do, then admit it, then pretend that conversation never happened. He also claimed all the sexual assault charges/convictions were all a grand conspiracy by the lady who ran the trailer park his family lived in, which went all the way to police departments and the courts across multiple counties, apparently.

You live long enough, you see/read/hear/experience enough and then you just go "oh, this person is a psychopath". It is indeed a bummer.

Well it could've been worse he could've wound up President.

Do you mean Bill Clinton?

and probably a whole lot more besides!

While I'm worried this will slide into the murk of public forgetfulness, it's good that people are getting called out for their behaviour right now.

Still shit that lots of people are having their motives questioned for speaking out. "why do more people not tell people about these experiences at the time?" maybe it's the avalanche of shittiness that gets poured on many accusers.

He could have meant Trump (allegations) and Bush Sr (allegations).