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Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:03 am
by dubkitty
the thing from 2009 has been in settlement talks ever since; Gibson has refused to settle. the DoJ pulled the new raid the day a settlement conference was supposed to take place in Federal Court.
as regard to the issue of these regulations affecting musicians generally, here's a detailed article from the notoriously government-hating magazine
Fretboard Journal 
, with specific attention to the Lacey Act under which Gibson is being attacked:
So, imagine that a scrap of what appears to be Madagascar rosewood currently resides in your guitar as its back, sides, fingerboard, or bridge. What is your liability? To begin with, if you have taken the instrument outside of the US, you’ll need to file a Lacey Act Import Declaration when you bring it back. You can find the form
here (pdf download). As you’ll see, the Import Declaration requires that you list every plant or animal species that your guitar contains. You have to list the substance by scientific name, the amount of the substance (by weight) in your guitar, and the country of the substance’s origin. What happens if you lie on the form? It’s a felony, subjecting you to a fine of up to $250,000 (or $500,000 for corporations), prison for up to five years, and forfeiture of your guitar. Indeed, any knowing violation of the Lacey Act brings those penalties. And, even if you do not knowingly violate the act, you’ve committed a misdemeanor if you failed to exercise “due care” in trying to find out what plant and animal substances the manufacturer used to make your guitar. The penalties are a fine of up to $100,000 ($200,000 for corporation), a one year prison sentence, and forfeiture of your guitar.
Suppose that you simply did not know that the bridge was Madagascar rosewood? Or, you knew that it was Madagascar rosewood, but had been told by a credible source, like its manufacturer, that it had been harvested from the legal regions of Madagascar. The penalty is forfeiture. Yes, that’s right. The Lacey Act imposes what the law calls strict liability. Even if you have no knowledge, despite herculean efforts to obtain it, that some piece of your guitar, no matter how small, was obtained illegally, you lose your guitar forever. Oh, and you’ll be fined $250 for that false (or missing) information in your Lacey Act Import Declaration.
http://www.fretboardjournal.com/feature ... ion-treaty
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:27 am
by devnulljp
Toonster wrote:but the question is: how would the article be if it was written by a non-American news-source?
Well, the Daily Fail in the UK -- which is Fox News Lite in print form -- did its usual NANNY STATE PC RUN AMOK OMG THE MUSLIMS WAR ON CHRISTMAS headline and story to match too.
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:08 am
by Mike
This article from a Memphis paper says the investigation was started after customs found a shipment of wood that was supposed to be 6mm thick, but was actually 10mm thick. They followed it, and it apparently led to Gibson.
I've read and heard elsewhere that is is basically the result of an Indian protectionist labor law-- Indian wood must be shipped out as final products, not as raw materials. They do have 1.2B people to put to work.
I've also heard, though, that this wasn't initiated by the Indian government. They supposedly aren't concerned that a wood product is 4mm to thick. They couldn't seriously expect Gibson to move manufacturing to India just to use their wood, so it's either sell them wood they can use, or don't sell it at all. It's US law that is apparently being used to enforce Indian law-- the law they aren't enforcing.
Mike
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:07 am
by dubkitty
not to mention that the difference between 6mm strips and 10mm strips is potentially that someone didn't have their chai on Monday morning. hold your fingers up in front of your face. 6mm. 10mm. this is the basis of a multi-million-dollar seizure by the US Department of Justice, in the wake of a similar multi-million dollar seizure of materials and finished products from Gibson in 2009 for which charges have never been filed. and in the most recent raid, DoJ tried to order Gibson not to ship any guitars from the Nashville plant, saying any shipment would be considered a potential obstruction of justice and lead to potential criminal charges. and conducted the raid on the day a settlement conference was to take place in Federal court on the 2009 seizure.
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:23 am
by devnulljp
They're just trying to save us from the Reverse Zoot Suit FirebirdX
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am
by dubkitty
that is an example of wood which, unfortunately, is NOT endangered. but which i would be happy to endanger if someone would sponsor me some kerosene
Firebird X -> X-Firebird.
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:02 am
by McSpunckle
Not to be argumentative, but the difference between 6mm and 10mm isn't insignificant. For every three 10mm thick boards, they could make five 6mm thick boards (and likely charge more per cubic foot to offset tool time/wear and small amounts of material loss from the machining).
4mm is over 1/8", which is enough to screw up many a good project or require more work for the customer.
And this was over 1,200 boards. That's not a mistake.
Whether or not it should be illegal is another matter entirely. It seems that it was, in fact, illegal according to Indian law, and through the Lacey Act illegal in the United States. They found illegally imported wood, and and it happened to be Gibson's. As with any illegal import, they took it.
This is really a case of whether or not the law is fair. There's really no evidence (unless you consider some conservative blog evidence) that this has anything to do with political affiliation.
In any case, fuck Gibson.
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:16 am
by My name is Mudd
McSpunckle wrote:Not to be argumentative...
I agree - from a manufacturing perspective, a 4mm difference is a mile. And the whole thing sounds like a test case in the making.
And the article the OP linked to makes it sound as if the feds busted down the door and came in with assault rifles at the ready...most federal agents are armed by default, the same way that most police officers are armed by default. Nothing like a little creative wording to tilt the write-up in a particular direction...
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:40 am
by snipelfritz
Achtane wrote:It's happened before.
THE FIREBIRD X IS MADE FROM SLAVE BLOOD!
AT ITS CORE...THE HEART OF AN ORPHAN.
Venture Bros. reference. Sploosh.
I stopped reading that article after "gestapo." Every day, I realize a little more that I'm a moderate, I just don't want to admit it.
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:45 pm
by RR Bigman
No offense, but natural news isn't exactly what I'd call a reputable source...
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:25 pm
by jarder
People always forget that the government does everything behind the barrel of a gun. Just because they didn't run in guns blazing does not mean they weren't there.
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:02 pm
by McSpunckle
jarder wrote:People always forget that the government does everything behind the barrel of a gun. Just because they didn't run in guns blazing does not mean they weren't there.
You see, they are armed because its their job to take shit from people.
Some people aren't fans of having their shit taken.
Also, the government maintains roads, and there are very few guns involved in that. And Medicare is more often on the other side of the gun.
I've also never had a gun pointed at me at the DMV, though there may have been a police man there. I assumed he was there just in case something happened, but I guess I could see how he was intimidating me into getting my driver's license.
I census worker came to my house once. She wasn't armed...
Pretty sure teachers don't threaten kids with guns to make them to long division.
I could go on, but I'm hungry.
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:26 pm
by dubkitty
however, road maintenance is dependant upon collection of taxes, which is done under penalty of imprisonment; licensing of drivers entails enforcement of licensing regulations, which means arresting people for driving without a license; refusing to fill out a Census form is in fact a criminal offense; and both children and parents can face charges when students fail to appear regularly in their assigned public-school classrooms. political power, as Mao said, grows from the barrel of a gun, and that's equally true of all states; it's just a question of how we assign the guns to whom. all governmental authority carries with it an implicit or explicit threat. that's why the folks who wrote the US Constitution took such pains to limit the powers of the state.
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:26 pm
by Gearmond
jarder wrote:People always forget that the government does everything behind the barrel of a gun. Just because they didn't run in guns blazing does not mean they weren't there.
having a gun and using it are two completely different things.
i'm pretty liberal but most gun owners are kinda in the same mentality as martial artists
Re: Gibson raided? Wtf?
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:10 am
by jrmy
Gearmond wrote:jarder wrote:People always forget that the government does everything behind the barrel of a gun. Just because they didn't run in guns blazing does not mean they weren't there.
having a gun and using it are two completely different things.
i'm pretty liberal but most gun owners are kinda in the same mentality as martial artists
Speaking as a peaceful, liberal person with a number of gentle, liberal martial artist friends, I'm curious as to what that mindset is. To say nothing of my gun-owning friends (most of whom who live in downeast Maine and do, in fact, hunt for food).