How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

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baremountain
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by baremountain »

Yea I think we can all get behind that 100% :)
I think the fact that you can swap shit is cool enough in and of itself, especially given this:
AlexanderPedals wrote:a lot of our stuff uses an additional chip or two to extend the functionality of the FV-1. If you put a Chesapeake chip in a BitQuest! you're going to be VERY disappointed since we do 90% of the heavy lifting outside of the FV-1 on that pedal.
That is a very cool prospect - I'm curious if you've ever tried to swap out chips between your own pedals? I'd love to hear what a Chesapeake chip sounds like in an F-13, just out of curiosity. The whole defying expectations thing is really the part that interests me.
That also probably does explain why the timing on the Reverse Rad in the Radical housing was a little different too.
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by D.o.S. »

AlexanderPedals wrote:After all, I did invent modulation :facepalm:
Highlighting this from your fantastic post because it is still my absolutely favorite example of watching a joke fly totally over an interviewer's head in the gear universe.
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by DRodriguez »

AlexanderPedals wrote:You're not licensed to use the EEPROM in another pedal, even another one of ours. However, I can't stop you from doing it and I wouldn't want to try to police that practice. I think that the stuff that guys like UC and Simon are doing is very cool, and I love the BitQuest!

What bothers me is the idea that people might read down these EEPROMs and roll their own pedals using the code that I spent time and money on. There are plenty of unscrupulous folks out there that might due this, and that ultimately can hurt the builders that you like. If anybody can make a Particle or an F.13 or a Generation Loss without spending the time and effort that Red Panda, Teej, or I did, where is our incentive to keep building and making cool new stuff? (Please note I'm not saying that I am a builder you like. Just using myself as an example. After all, I did invent modulation :facepalm: )
I completely agree on the sentiment of being worried about thieving code etc. But, even though you say you're not going to police it, there is some grey area around the statement that your customers aren't licensed to use the EEPROM, especially if you don't specifically say you are selling the license.

This is one of those things surrounding copyright law that pops up every so often with the right to repair bills, etc. But in general, unless there are specific measures in place to prevent someone from accessing software on a device they purchased via language in agreements during the purchase or via locks on the device, they are legally allowed to use the parts of that device as they please. Just like your example of running an application on a single computer, most of the time, it would be legally sound for me to pop the hard drive out of a computer and take it with me to run my software somewhere else, unless I agree to some T&C stating I can't. That does not allow me to copy the code on said device or even duplicating it for personal use.

That's all regarding laws in the US, which is generally on the stricter side of intellectual property rights. You'll find a lot of other countries will have more rights for the end user. Especially those wild scandis. That's one of the reasons some companies initially on the border of intellectual property legality start over there, like Spotify.

Love the subject of intellectual property and the often confusing laws surrounding intellectual property, especially since it's so important to the music industry I earn my bread in.

Dig the pedals, don't really care about the whole hate on spin chips, or simplifications some people may have said (I say plenty of dumb things all the time). Glad to have your input on the matter.
AlexanderPedals wrote:After all, I did invent modulation :facepalm:
:lol:
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by UglyCasanova »

DRodriguez wrote: That's all regarding laws in the US, which is generally on the stricter side of intellectual property rights. You'll find a lot of other countries will have more rights for the end user. Especially those wild scandis.
This is very true. As long as you don't redistribute content that doesn't belong to you (DVDs, CDs, software), you are allowed to make copies of the original files and do whatever you want with them as long as you're the user. "You bought it, you own it, all of it", basically.
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by AlexanderPedals »

baremountain wrote:Yea I think we can all get behind that 100% :)
I think the fact that you can swap shit is cool enough in and of itself, especially given this:
AlexanderPedals wrote:a lot of our stuff uses an additional chip or two to extend the functionality of the FV-1. If you put a Chesapeake chip in a BitQuest! you're going to be VERY disappointed since we do 90% of the heavy lifting outside of the FV-1 on that pedal.
That is a very cool prospect - I'm curious if you've ever tried to swap out chips between your own pedals? I'd love to hear what a Chesapeake chip sounds like in an F-13, just out of curiosity. The whole defying expectations thing is really the part that interests me.
That also probably does explain why the timing on the Reverse Rad in the Radical housing was a little different too.
The Reverse Radical (and Sky Fi) run the FV-1 at roughly 16KHz, which is half the speed that we normally use. We do the reverse delay by brute-force reading the delay memory backwards and the LFO we use to do this can't read the entire delay address range. If you run the pedal at 32.768KHz then you only get about 480ms of delay time which is super short for a reverse. We run at half-speed to double the delay time, at the expense of high frequency response. If you swap the Reverse chip into something that uses the faster clock, the Reverse mode will be much less usable but the LFOs on the Granular and Spiral modes will go WAY faster and that is super fun.

The Chesapeake (and the Equilibrium DLX) use another IC to do the tap tempo, LFO, and handle the rate control. We're basically driving the FV-1 remotely, not using its LFOs at all on those pedals.

When we started we were using the FV-1 itself to do most of the work in the pedals, other than the Mix control. On the current boards we've got an AVR microcontroller that handles bypass switching, LEDs, plus some extra control options. Depending on the pedal, the AVR might do almost nothing or almost everything.
D.o.S. wrote:
AlexanderPedals wrote:After all, I did invent modulation :facepalm:
Highlighting this from your fantastic post because it is still my absolutely favorite example of watching a joke fly totally over an interviewer's head in the gear universe.
If I can't laugh at myself, you guys will do it for me :) I hear that I also invented pricing errors, but I don't recall claiming that...

DRodriguez wrote: I completely agree on the sentiment of being worried about thieving code etc. But, even though you say you're not going to police it, there is some grey area around the statement that your customers aren't licensed to use the EEPROM, especially if you don't specifically say you are selling the license.

This is one of those things surrounding copyright law that pops up every so often with the right to repair bills, etc. But in general, unless there are specific measures in place to prevent someone from accessing software on a device they purchased via language in agreements during the purchase or via locks on the device, they are legally allowed to use the parts of that device as they please. Just like your example of running an application on a single computer, most of the time, it would be legally sound for me to pop the hard drive out of a computer and take it with me to run my software somewhere else, unless I agree to some T&C stating I can't. That does not allow me to copy the code on said device or even duplicating it for personal use.
Until now there was no reason to issue license terms, or a EULA, or any of that business. I honestly don't care if you go swapping chips, as long as you don't possess the chips without the pedals they came in. I wouldn't discourage anyone from opening their pedal and doing what they want - I consider using an F.13 EEPROM in a BitQuest as "fair use." As you said, fair use doesn't include copying the code for your own purposes.
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by Chankgeez »

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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by rfurtkamp »

I still haven't gotten over loving the Z80 and original MIPS processors in the Quadraverb and SGEs. ;)

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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by $harkToootth »

I'm so into this thread. It's like a weird foreshadowing into the future of pedals/intellectual property. I keep running into videos where company owners talk about how you charge for the "development process". Enclosures and knobs have a price. So does coding. But the actual "ideation"? But this is also nothing new. Time is a flat circle.

I'll share my chips with you guys. I like actually like a party mix better than chips but you know...
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by rfurtkamp »

The intellectual property will end up in the hands of everyone eventually, when the producers aren't in the business or aren't making 'em any more.

Can get EPROMs with all the code of the old rack units for upgrades etc pretty easily now for the price of a blank EPROM and a couple bucks for somebody to burn it, because there's no other game in town.

All code becomes abandonware eventually.
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by themagpie »

Hey I know Im probably late to answer anything in here but I have no problemo with being considered unethical. I mean Id love to just set fire to a pedal and sell it as a art piece for a billion dollars and never have to work just being able to do what I think is fun and shit. If I find the perfect combo of switch shifting would I buy two pedals - switch - and sell for more money? NO I FUCKING HATE MONEY!! If anybody loves money more then their pedals and would consider copying code to just sit and do that lazy as uncreative bullshit I feel fucking sorry for that dude.
Money is like the only thing keeping me from doing magpie all day every-fucking-day. AND I WORK NIGHT SO THAT SHOULDNT BE A PROBLEM! hah. Also I hate having adds on youtube I just wanted to see how much that would make me in a month or 2. So far = (see picture..)

Basically all I create as magpie is shit like circuit bent (others) pedals or cheap as toys just put in boxes marketed as pedals. How the fuck can I sell that? Well cause people love that I put the time into first off discovering it and then making it for yah. Does that make me unethical? But #diyftw of course dudes.

Thing is I think that chip switching can only be a fucking great thing for all companies cause it will probably mean more sales because people will want to have pedals for switching chips!

And anybody thinking of copying code to make money is just a capitalistic asshole and its not like they will stop exist just cause they are hated. People use fucking child labour and shit!! Im thinking a market of people wanting to be creative and thrive in creativity wouldnt have capitalistic assholes like that in it? That should be behringer.. buying up other brands.. fucking money..

I dont even know anything about what Im doing I just swap chips and I love it!! Its a fucking cumbayah bui$$ni$$ that EVERYONE should join in on!! Have a chip? Try switching it? Ive got a bunch of filmed episodes coming up yeah!!
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

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Also if anyone can guess what I just made - ITS YOURS FOR FREE!!
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by drolo »

a shit fister ?
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Re: How some learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by rfurtkamp »

That will be an LED in a box. Yay.
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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by themagpie »

Teej212 wrote:
UglyCasanova wrote:How ethical did you feel when you sold your wataFUZZ for like $800?
I would hardly say playing along with the supply and demand game is unethical, especially compared to potentially profiting off of someone else's hard work through stealing their code (not saying youre doing that, but it certainly seems like the thread is heading towards 'how can I pull the code off my spin chip pedal')

edit - I definitely plan on soldering my chips to the board now and activating write protection now that the cat is out of the bag. Which sucks because I had planned on updating codes and allowing users to swap out their old versions.

Im doing a episode with AARP & Bitquest. Cause its a insanely fun combo!!! I hope youre not offended by this! I think in the end that is actually just a good thing then that the cat is out of a bag? Better then a bunch of shady people stealing code in the fucking dark dude! This stops that shit from happening
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Re: How I learned to stop worrying and love the spinchip

Post by UglyCasanova »

themagpie wrote:I think in the end that is actually just a good thing then that the cat is out of a bag? Better then a bunch of shady people stealing code in the fucking dark dude! This stops that shit from happening
Ah, yes. The ol'
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