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D.o.S. wrote:

theAntihero wrote:

hbombgraphics wrote:

theAntihero wrote:

hbombgraphics wrote:

theAntihero wrote:I disagree, she's way too good way too fast at everything she tries.

Isn't that the point though?

To a certain extent, sure, but add to it that she knows the falcon better than han. Han offers Her a job right away....and then at the end she's the new pilot of the falcon? A few of those would have been OK, but all of them on top of becoming a great shot right away, knowing everything mechanical about everything and being able to pull off a bunch of force stuff without training makes it laughable imo. I think the writers fell in love with the character too much. It happens, Terry Goodkind is a good example of it.

I was also kinda miffed they didn't explain much about the time between the trilogies. The rebellion is still going on 30 years later and is called the resistance now? People think Han Solo and Skywalker are myths? Isn't that like thinking Led Zepplien is a myth? It wasn't THAT long ago.

I did like the Star Trek reboot, I was kinda hoping he would pull it off again

I think he pulled it off more than Not,
Star trek re-boot was different in that it ignored chronology all together.
I do to some extent understand what you are saying about Rey, but I have no issues with the character at all, it's not that much different of a career path than Luke except that he had some training.

Also: In a Multi Planet system thinking something was a legend isn't that far off, I am sure even in some remote parts of our world things that we think are commonplace are thought of as myth or legend.

Luke also lost a hand, was hitting on his sister and in general failed at stuff. Maybe it was the pacing, but in 2 or so hours she's the best at everything.....hell I'm not even sure why they need to find Luke at this point, Rey is obviously a jedi master lol.

I will also say....the books had far better stories in them that had far less plot holes. I think they missed a gold mine by not touching upon them

Yeah that's not true, actually. Luke doesn't lose his hand until the Emipre Strikes Back, but feel free to conflate things that happen in different movies to prove your point.

awwww snap..........
So who looses a hand in the next movie?

theAntihero wrote:Lol, no. I'm saying she needs to fail just a little

she did mean to expertly hack the doors of that space hangar and accidently released the... kraken?

D.o.S. wrote:

theAntihero wrote:

hbombgraphics wrote:

theAntihero wrote:

hbombgraphics wrote:

theAntihero wrote:I disagree, she's way too good way too fast at everything she tries.

Isn't that the point though?

To a certain extent, sure, but add to it that she knows the falcon better than han. Han offers Her a job right away....and then at the end she's the new pilot of the falcon? A few of those would have been OK, but all of them on top of becoming a great shot right away, knowing everything mechanical about everything and being able to pull off a bunch of force stuff without training makes it laughable imo. I think the writers fell in love with the character too much. It happens, Terry Goodkind is a good example of it.

I was also kinda miffed they didn't explain much about the time between the trilogies. The rebellion is still going on 30 years later and is called the resistance now? People think Han Solo and Skywalker are myths? Isn't that like thinking Led Zepplien is a myth? It wasn't THAT long ago.

I did like the Star Trek reboot, I was kinda hoping he would pull it off again

I think he pulled it off more than Not,
Star trek re-boot was different in that it ignored chronology all together.
I do to some extent understand what you are saying about Rey, but I have no issues with the character at all, it's not that much different of a career path than Luke except that he had some training.

Also: In a Multi Planet system thinking something was a legend isn't that far off, I am sure even in some remote parts of our world things that we think are commonplace are thought of as myth or legend.

Luke also lost a hand, was hitting on his sister and in general failed at stuff. Maybe it was the pacing, but in 2 or so hours she's the best at everything.....hell I'm not even sure why they need to find Luke at this point, Rey is obviously a jedi master lol.

I will also say....the books had far better stories in them that had far less plot holes. I think they missed a gold mine by not touching upon them

Yeah that's not true, actually. Luke doesn't lose his hand until the Emipre Strikes Back, but feel free to conflate things that happen in different movies to prove your point.

What does it matter which movie he lose his hand in? I'm not comparing the force awakens to a new hope I'm comparing the characters as we know them, but feel free to confuse the issue to prove your point

ProCarsteNation wrote:

theAntihero wrote:Lol, no. I'm saying she needs to fail just a little

she did mean to expertly hack the doors of that space hangar and accidently released the... kraken?

Lol fair point there

theAntihero wrote: What does it matter which movie he lose his hand in? I'm not comparing the force awakens to a new hope I'm comparing the characters as we know them, but feel free to confuse the issue to prove your point

I think he's saying that Luke also does a few pretty cool things with basically no training until midway through the second movie. He uses force powers to guide a missile into a 2-meter wide exhaust port from several miles away with no computer guidance. He uses the force to telekinetically grab his light saber when he's stuck in the ice. Remember, he doesn't get any telekinesis training until after that when he's on Dagobah. Also remember, Luke was a wimpy farmer boy (he got pushed around in the Mos Eisley Cantina) who had never really fought before in his life, and graduated to being able to wield a light saber and hold his own against Vader for a while at the end of ESB. In contrast, Rey is an orphan who it appears has pretty much been fighting for her entire life, and even wields the light saber as if it were the same old staff that she always used. She's good mechanically, but so was little Anakin in the hated prequels. Also like Luke and little Anakin, she's a kickass natural pilot.

Basically, there aren't any skills that she shows off that either Luke or Anakin didn't show with little to no training in previous movies.

theAntihero wrote:

D.o.S. wrote: Yeah that's not true, actually. Luke doesn't lose his hand until the Emipre Strikes Back, but feel free to conflate things that happen in different movies to prove your point.

What does it matter which movie he lose his hand in? I'm not comparing the force awakens to a new hope I'm comparing the characters as we know them, but feel free to confuse the issue to prove your point

You're complaining that character B is way too good at everything way too fast compared to character A... and your frame of reference for the two characters are the complete story arc of character A through the original trilogy and only one third (as far as we know) of character B's. The problems here should be fairly self-evident.

or:

bigchiefbc wrote: Basically, there aren't any skills that she shows off that either Luke or Anakin didn't show with little to no training in previous movies.

I agree with D.o.S. 100% here.

Luke and even Anakin displayed the exact same tendencies in their respective introductions.

Anakin was a nine-year-old child who built C-3PO and was an expert pilot.

Luke destroyed the Death Star within days of leaving the vapour farm.

People were calling Luke a Mary Sue, in the 1970s.

Either it's a non-issue, Rey's incredible powers, or you have to be prepared to apply the same reasoning to the other six movies.

it's almost as though people are incredulous about it because she's a girl

Re: competency.

I had this conversation with my borther-in-law.

Carl Sagan said that the greatest problem society could face, is that it depends on technology entirely, but very few people actually understand that technology (can't find the actual quote; I think it's in the intro to Broca's Brain, he's talking to a cab driver about it, anyway).

I said to my BIL, "In this world, technology is ubiquitous, but competency with technology is not. Whereas in Star Wars, technology is even more ubiquitous, but the average person on the street has an intimate understanding of it, to the point where, in this world, that level of technology would be professional. Like... they take apart droids, build lightsabers, fix spacecraft, etc., as though it's effortless, or close."

He said, "I think maybe the Star Wars world is like this one: ubiquitous technology, and the average person maybe doesn't know that much about it. But when we're seeing Han and Luke, or Rey, or Anakin, we're seeing exceptional people, that represent an intuitive and very much above-average technological prowess."

What do you guys think?

casecandy wrote:I agree with D.o.S. 100% here.

Luke and even Anakin displayed the exact same tendencies in their respective introductions.

Anakin was a nine-year-old child who built C-3PO and was an expert pilot.

Luke destroyed the Death Star within days of leaving the vapour farm.

People were calling Luke a Mary Sue, in the 1970s.

Either it's a non-issue, Rey's incredible powers, or you have to be prepared to apply the same reasoning to the other six movies.

it's almost as though people are incredulous about it because she's a girl

Yeah I think that every frame of the original trilogy is so ingrained in our heads that we ignore that Luke had half an hour of lightsaber training, 30 seconds with a blindfold on, and suddenly he was able to control the path of proton torpedoes because a voice in his head said "just fucking do it, you know you can."

Think about this: Luke, when he saw Yoda lift the X-Wing out of the swamp in Dagobah, said "I don't believe it," and Yoda replied "And that is why you fail." Rey was so confident in everything she did because she had to be. On Jakku, she grew up scavenging supplies to exchange for food, and otherwise was able to tinker with old technology all the time. So of course she was confident in repairing everything within seconds, she had years of experience and it was how she made a living on her own. Once she started realizing what she was capable of in watching Kylo Ren use the Force after Maz told her she was able to, she believed in herself (so cheesy, I know) and was so calm and confident in dire situations that she was able to control the Force. She's very powerful, and so was Luke once he grew confident in his strength, but they don't have the restrained control like Yoda does (at least that we've seen).

Likewise with Kylo Ren: Here is someone who clearly has not had much formal training but seems immensely powerful. He is so insecure with himself that he feels like he has to dickswing his Force powers whenever he can. In respect to Darth Vader, who was fearmongering dictator of the Empire - his job was to be big and scary, so he didn't have to show off everything he did. His Force choking and torturing people were powerful intimidation.

Basically, Yoda and Vader (and Palpatine) were immensely powerful Jedi/Sith, but were so dialed in with their powers and already in positions of such power (or in Yoda's situation, just never needed to on Dagobah that we saw) that they rarely had to flex nuts. Meanwhile, Rey is extremely raw but powerful. Ren is powerful and insecure. Neither of them have full grasp of their powers yet.

Also, w/r/t Chewie and Kylo, Peter Mayhew (Chewie HIMSELF) shared this heartbreaking comic (I think done by a Blizzard artist?)
https://twitter.com/TheWookieeRoars/sta ... 7545947136

In some of the Star Wars games, you could often charge the Bowcaster and other weapons (and there was Stun Mode on Stormtrooper blasters in A New Hope!), so just firing a wounding shot seems possible.

Full comic below:

Ouch.

vidret wrote:

pelliott wrote: Yeah I think that every frame of the original trilogy is so ingrained in our heads that we ignore that Luke had half an hour of lightsaber training, 30 seconds with a blindfold on..

i imagine in every movie where they show you something like this, ie someone training or a montage or whatever, it's supposed to be taken as if they spent WAY MORE TIME obviously than what was shown. If they show me a strong person in a movie i assume he/she works out to some degree. If they show that person working out I'm gonna assume they mean THEY WORK OUT A LOT but they only showed that short scene.

somewhat like dark knight rises. it's not my favourite batman movie, I think it's my least favourite of the nolan ones, but anyhow - the guy doesn't do anything for 8 yrs, gets his ass kicked and back broken by bane and then is sent to the hole-prison. NOW; here my friend argues he should be weaker than ever and should never be able to defeat Bane at the end, and them showing him doing a couple of pushups doesn't make him that much stronger.
I look at it as when they even SHOW HIM doing pushups at ALL it means he does a fuckton over a long, long period of time, including other kinds of exercise, and he's way stronger when he comes back (also his heart's in it this time).

Same thing with star wars. 30 second lightsaber training on the falcon is probably several hours, and even though that's short I think someone skilled with the force can come a long way with this. think of it as newbie-gains


TL;DR if they even put a scene implying someone trains in a movie, it equals to them saying they actually trained for 10000000000000000+ hrs they just couldn't put it in the movie.
Screen time is valuable.

Right, but we know that his lightsaber training only lasted a handful of hours at most because the trip just didn't last that long. And this is for a kid who literally had no idea how to fight beforehand (i.e. getting beat up by the sandpeople and also pushed around in the Cantina). At least with Rey, they established that she knew how to fight with a weapon already.

bigchiefbc wrote:

vidret wrote:

pelliott wrote: Yeah I think that every frame of the original trilogy is so ingrained in our heads that we ignore that Luke had half an hour of lightsaber training, 30 seconds with a blindfold on..

i imagine in every movie where they show you something like this, ie someone training or a montage or whatever, it's supposed to be taken as if they spent WAY MORE TIME obviously than what was shown. If they show me a strong person in a movie i assume he/she works out to some degree. If they show that person working out I'm gonna assume they mean THEY WORK OUT A LOT but they only showed that short scene.

somewhat like dark knight rises. it's not my favourite batman movie, I think it's my least favourite of the nolan ones, but anyhow - the guy doesn't do anything for 8 yrs, gets his ass kicked and back broken by bane and then is sent to the hole-prison. NOW; here my friend argues he should be weaker than ever and should never be able to defeat Bane at the end, and them showing him doing a couple of pushups doesn't make him that much stronger.
I look at it as when they even SHOW HIM doing pushups at ALL it means he does a fuckton over a long, long period of time, including other kinds of exercise, and he's way stronger when he comes back (also his heart's in it this time).

Same thing with star wars. 30 second lightsaber training on the falcon is probably several hours, and even though that's short I think someone skilled with the force can come a long way with this. think of it as newbie-gains


TL;DR if they even put a scene implying someone trains in a movie, it equals to them saying they actually trained for 10000000000000000+ hrs they just couldn't put it in the movie.
Screen time is valuable.

Right, but we know that his lightsaber training only lasted a handful of hours at most because the trip just didn't last that long. And this is for a kid who literally had no idea how to fight beforehand (i.e. getting beat up by the sandpeople and also pushed around in the Cantina). At least with Rey, they established that she knew how to fight with a weapon already.

Luke was a deadeye though. Even without the force he considered launching a proton torpedo into the Death Star's thermal exhaust port to be no more difficult than bulls-eyeing a Womp rat.

Yeah but he wouldn't have been able to shoot those womp rats if he didn't already have the force. He just hadn't "tuned into" it yet. He had it, he just didn't know it.

I mean, he just hopped in an x wing for the first time and suddenly he was blowing up death stars. Meanwhile these other pilots had more experience in a fighter than Luke but none of them thought it could be done.

The Force can be used instinctively by those who are sensitive to it, furthermore even in dire situations.

I realize there was slightly more training than they showed on screen. It still isn't very much -- the hyperspace trip from Tatooine was just a few hours, compared to when he had a WHOLE DANG WEEK in ESB on Dagobah.

The point is people give way too much of a shit about Rey, who is more confident than Luke was at the same point in their respective stories, having a knack for using the Force and fixing things. You know, just like her father did. And his father before him.