Do you love ILF and it's members? heh...members.

[Eivind August]

I thought "as long as they don't impose it on others" kinda cleared those problems away from the arguement, though? Point being shaping laws based on belief is imposing.

i get that, my point being it's unavoidable when a large enough amount of people believe in something it's going to dictate the way we live. if you TRULY believe something and you're in a position of power that's going to show in one way or another.

point being it will impose, in the end.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Depends on the belief though, and I think most moderatly religious people don't hold beliefs that will lead to bad shit for the rest of us.

But of course religion can be pretty problematic. It's just that it doesn't have to be, ya know? I mean, I don't get dictated by other peoples beliefs.

Damn, I went into this thread argueing against PC, and now I'm PCing all over the place. Fuck shit whore, burn the dildo cunts for the love of cockexplosions.

[rustywire]

Re: Shirtstorm, science classrooms with girls in them watched that live. When people asked what signal the pretty fricking lurid, NSFW shirt sent about the place of women in science in a very measured manner, they got death threats and rape threats and worse. One of the people on the receiving end of the threats is very close to me. I don't care how aggrieved anyone is because a feminist or member of the "PC police" hurt his (and it's almost always his) fee-fees. Death threats, rape threats, etc., are fucking midnight rides KKK-level terrorism shit.

I'm not saying in anyway that is anyone in this thread, but the mere mention of that incident makes my blood fucking boil. I do not assume the worst of the people who think the initial shirtstorm critique was an overreaction, though I may disagree with them on that point. We cool.

Around here, people can actually take it like someone who has graduated kindergarten when someone points out they're doing something inconsiderate or assholy, or if there is a mere difference of perspective of opinion. This isn't about proscribed speech or thought, it's about the only rule here: try not to be an asshole. If only the rest of the world operated on that rule. It's part of why I prefer ILF to most of the rest of the world.

Fair enough. Let me preface this post by saying I have an "inappropriate" (no u) dry sense of humor that tends to get me in trouble.
IMO (paraphrasing) "What signal does that shirt send about the place of women in science" is a counterproductive straw argument. Hijacking the discussion from a scientific milestone, to a peripheral, emotional roundtable debate on women-specific issues displays no less poor taste than that tacky novelty shirt. Asking "what signal does that shirt send?" isn't a loaded question that leads the reader into a predetermined conclusion. In my case, the answer? NERD ALERT!
I don't think the celebration or objectification of female beauty and form, nor do contributions from the brightest (female) brains have to be at odds or mutually exclusive; they can and do coexist. A loud cartoon babes-print Hawaiian style shirt is so over the top goofy that I struggle to see things from the complainer's perspective. Personal choices don't represent a community or committee...and the silliness is being ignored. Look at him.


I mean, the fella is fully sleeved on both arms, and there's no outraged debate over the (perceived) reflection or marginalization of the scientific community/professionalism etc...despite the constant noise of how frowned upon that is in *the real world*.
It's an individual who made those (questionable) judgement calls/choices. Like the woman who chose to make a personal disagreement into a public spectacle, there are consequences for actions. That said, I don't see malice from either one...and there's no excuse for the crazies to go on the attack and personally antagonize, even harass and issue threats on either protagonist's behalf. That type of malice born extremism is unacceptable and should always be taken seriously. A novelty shirt? Not so much.
Anyway, sorry about your friend being bullied.

Carlin was right. Men are stupid, women are crazy.
Many women are/become crazy because of stupid men, but plenty would still be running for mayor of crazy town even without men in their lives.
And women can be stupid, too...there's plenty of overlap both ways with men alike.
Equal opportunity

ILF's tolerance for silliness is high. The rest of the world should def take note.

[Gone Fission]

I get you, Rustywire. I take the assumption that the dude wasn't malicious and will assume that he didn't have broader issues with women in his workplace. When people who made the same assumptions up front got the sort of threats I mention, it's a problem. And this is not the only instance of such threats for taking up issues that are more blatantly clear. I think the threats make the case against the position of the people making them. Yes, I get that this argument can be made against the least temperate feminist voices. But when the terms of discussion are dismissive about the incivility and shrillness of an "uppity" group on the underside of a power dynamic and that are subject to routine threats of anonymous violence, I don't think I have any privilege to demand respectability politics from that group. Due process and presumption of innocence for the shirt dude, that yes, I can demand.


Oh, and penis. Can we go back to discussing reverse mermaids or Ball jars or whatever? I feel like an asshole a bit for speaking up here and getting all serious and heavy about it.

[Doctor X]

what you can say is: it was completely wrong and shameful to harass and hound a totally innocent guy for no reason whatsoever

he'd spent a decade working on that project and it was meant to be the proudest day of his working life and he ended up being publicly embarrassed and humiliated by a bunch of bullies.

i heard a recent interview with him about science and his life's work, at one point the interviewer briefly tried to bring up the shirt incident but he hurriedly said he didn't want to talk about it, and you could hear how upset and traumatised he still is.

and i'm sorry but there was a sentence you wrote in your initial message - "I don't care how aggrieved anyone is because a feminist or member of the "PC police" hurt his (and it's almost always his) fee-fees."

i thought that saying how you dont care about someone else's "fee-fees" sounds very mocking and condescending and dismissive, and combined with the "and its almost always his"
it comes across as - MEN ARE SHIT AND WORTHLESS

if you want to view life as war between men and women then you go ahead, but maybe at some point in your life you will be able to reflect upon your own prejudices

[Gone Fission]

Doctor X, point taken. Wasn't trying to be dismissive of anyone except anonymous trolls making violent threats. They've removed themselves from any right to consideration or sympathy as far as I'm concerned. I don't think I'm inferior because I'm a male. I think I'm better then such reactionary bullshit, though, and think the people who engage in it are contemptable scum. Again, personal hot button.

[Glenouille]

I read this forum more than I participate to it but I have always loved it.
When every other forum turns out to be endlessly lacking imagination, recycling the same threads or questions and painfully sticking to the same concepts and habits, here on ILF, folks try new things and share novel or crazy ideas without any fear of being judged or shot down.
For me, this open-mindedness characterizes ILF. It is like a safe haven for those who think differently, a giant international gathering of quirky and interesting characters that I feel I know rather well despite having never met a single one of them. It is an odd and rather unique thing, a bit like a family.
Sometimes there is some tension and folks argue but eventually all agree to disagree and move on and sometimes everybody has tremendous fun together, a bit as if we were all jamming together and it really did work brilliantly - smiles all around. I tend to watch it all from the sidelines but I need my daily dose of ILF.

So in keeping with family tradition, I evidently voted for penis sandwich.

[ShaunNecro]

The penis is growing...

[Gone Fission]

So in keeping with family tradition, I evidently voted for penis sandwich.

It's what's for dinner!

[Sparrow]

I read this forum more than I participate to it but I have always loved it.
When every other forum turns out to be endlessly lacking imagination, recycling the same threads or questions and painfully sticking to the same concepts and habits, here on ILF, folks try new things and share novel or crazy ideas without any fear of being judged or shot down.
For me, this open-mindedness characterizes ILF. It is like a safe haven for those who think differently, a giant international gathering of quirky and interesting characters that I feel I know rather well despite having never met a single one of them. It is an odd and rather unique thing, a bit like a family.
Sometimes there is some tension and folks argue but eventually all agree to disagree and move on and sometimes everybody has tremendous fun together, a bit as if we were all jamming together and it really did work brilliantly - smiles all around. I tend to watch it all from the sidelines but I need my daily dose of ILF.

So in keeping with family tradition, I evidently voted for penis sandwich.

Right On!
you could put this on a t-shirt

[Disarm D'arcy]

PENIS SANDWICH FOR PREZ.

Right in Glen

[tabbycat]

since we've come along a few pages calling him 'the shirt guy' i thought he deserved a name.
his name is matt taylor, and he's a british scientist and he works with both the european and north american space agencies (esa/nsa). brief non-shirt related profile here http://rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov/matt-taylor

and here is a pic of his rosetta tattoo

a friend of mine did part of her internship for her ma at the hadron collider at cern. she's a big fan of matt and of coxy (brian cox, uk scientist, academic, author). i take my lead from her re what to think about him because she knows people who know him personally (so can vouch for his sincerity and decency) and is working to some day move in the same circles and work on the same things. she is someone i much admire. smarter and more talented than me.
she said that she and those she works with (male and female) were both saddened and disappointed about the way the whole thing got hijacked and misrepresented by 'interest groups' trying to hang their argument on a hook it doesn't belong on.
she's a dude, a great musician and a brilliant mind, and i repect her judgement on this (defer my assessment to hers) because her values, knowledge and insight into this one come from closer to the source of the action than 99% of the fluff that has been blown up around it since.

anyway, it aroused my curiosity and i found two 'sample articles' to compare and contrast, from the same (slightly left-of centre bias) paper (the uk guardian), both from the science section and written hours apart, by male and female journalists. to compare the two is an education in itself.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014 ... ding-comet
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014 ... s-clothing

interesting line from the second piece: "all of this raises multiple questions, not least why people in science aren’t routinely trained to be more aware of such issues?"

i suppose a possible answer to this one might be...

a) because they don't give a fuck about petty shit.

they are scientists, male and female, working together to do important things.

but that 'men and women working together to do important things' isn't a story that suits some people's agendas. which is where the shirt comes in.

[sonidero]

Shirt guy has a cool tat, it's all sciencey and stuff...

I haven't voted in either poll cause that's how ILF I am...

[Jwar]

So wait...people were mad about that shirt??? WHAT? I don't see anything wrong with it? I'm I blind or dumb?

Shit I've worn so many offensive shirts before. Not with women on them, but other things. Being from Kansas kind of blows sometimes because people will say shit to you. My Starfucker shirt saw permanent retirement because I got so fucking tired of people saying shit to me. I mean I can see it being offensive, but I was 17 at the time and fuck you saying shit to me!!!

I want this shirt bad but am afraid of the potential backlash around here.

[Mudfuzz]

If I was a satanist I'd so buy that shirt

[Jwar]

If I was a satanist I'd so buy that shirt

Dude I love it so much. It's hilarious to me! There's another one that says "Father forgive me for these gains I'm about to receive". So fucking funny! The dude that makes them has a youtube channel called Brosciencelife. He is so fucking funny.