Esoterics // Superstition

[Derelict78]

exactly
The key is to know why you are doing something but not consciously think about it. Mental gymnastics.

[alexa.]

^awww man, now I just HAVE to read it


...meh, superficial article

also. I need some help on this.
I'm intent on not having any more judgements, but this about the article being superficial is not an judgement, it's true. then again, truth is relative to other truth depending on your point of observation (from my point, the article is superficial). [I could use facts yes, but who could determine what is fact and what is truth?] sooo, should I just learn to express myself more skillfully, or is there no way to avoid stating "judgements" except not-stating-judgements? or a third solution?
I'd like to hear some.. khm.. judgements on this

[Derelict78]

you know if you like it you like it if not than you dont. I thought it was an ok article not the best I have read by them but OK. It invited me to do more research and I did a little. I didnt learn much but Like I said I thought the article was only OK. Best of all it sparked this conversation. I had to think and write out theories of why/how magick works and that is awesome.

[gunslinger_burrito]

I only posted that article because it went along with some of the ideas already presented in this thread. It's a long shot away from being a good read on the subject, but I found it interesting that someone did actual studies on it. One could just as easily make up their own rituals for their own ends, although it can be strongly argued that rituals made up by other people will have a much better effect. It seems to me that most people place more "power" into the unknown. The more you know about something, the less allure it tends to have, because it's lost some of its mystery. Using ideas put forth by persons with power and history behind their name will more likely have a better effect on your subconscious.

@Alexa: Truth, when we're not talking about the intrinsic laws of the universe (gravity and such, which everyone KNOWS to be a real force) can also be defined as what the most people out of a given group can agree upon. Just like good and evil can be defined as what a group of people like and don't like, or how they think people should or shouldn't conduct themselves. On THAT note, I would say, in my opinion, that it's impossible to not have any judgments about anything. Not only do I think that amounts to not having any sort of opinion on anything, but I think it's a paradox of sorts, especially if coupled with the attitude that people should live their lives in any particular way. That's already a judgment. To me, it's the same as saying, "I love everything equally." Even the guy who would shoot you for your skin color, race, or religion? Even those who constantly take advantage of you in daily life, who most likely won't change their ways any time soon? How can someone love, say, their spouse, just as much as these other, less-deserving people? Wouldn't that be demeaning to your spouse? So I'm sticking with "to not judge is to not have an opinion, to always be sitting on the fence." I think that under scrutiny, anyone who tries to live that way will find that they only do so in their own heads.

I'll go back to Jodorowsky, from Psychomagic
"The Legend of Buddha, if one looks at it well, is quite grim: a young rich kid abandons his wife and child to be carefree; he was someone who feared the most natural things in the world like death, old age, poverty.....
If I do not believe in reincarnation, Buddha fails me. For him, it is necessary to escape from this life in order to not be reincarnated again, and this is an error. It is not necessary to escape from anything. It is necessary to live life. We cannot establish doctrines in which I must believe, communicating things by saying let's stop the wheel on reincarnation, karma, and so forth. They are suspicious beliefs. In no way do I use them. Well studied, they are toxins for everyone."

Now that I've rambled on and on again let me say that it would be nice to rekindle a philosophical discussion....maybe about magic, rituals, etc..... ?

[Derelict78]

any of you cats into sigil magick? if so we could swap them charge them and send them off than compare. Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth or TOPY did some pretty wild experiments with sigil swapping.It was pretty fun.

[gunslinger_burrito]

Can't say that I have the time....but if you were to inform me as to what sigil swapping entails....I am intrigued. Maybe something could happen? You talking about Enochian tables or something?

[alexa.]

@gunslinger: I saw the article in a completely different light than you did I think, but that is besides the point. My point about not stating judgements was that little nitpick that allows you more freedom and detachment, while still being able to be in-medias-res. Paradoxical states allow for the view of the coin from both sides at once, and for utilization of both polarities, the golden middle. Also, the quote about Buddha, I completely agree (even though it may not have been obvious, but in this new light of my approach to paradox it may be); enlightenment is the process of realizing that you were there from the beginning and there was nothing to realize and nowhere else to go. (:
I was just wondering about that little nitpick of thought, cuz I can't really seem to find it. It's probably the same story as "not desiring" but that being a "desire not to desire". I guess I'll just be water
(I'm really passionate about working out those little things for myself, cuz the thoughts I go through do not merely stay thoughts, they get put into conscious action. I'm programming my own brain so to say, so that my intrinsic knowledge can stay embedded in my neurons, and become my second nature, turning thought into state of being. A sort of a evolutionary standpoint that people seem to miss quite often.)

Regarding magic, I feel that there is common ground to all magic rituals is the will; the choice. That's true magic, that gets things happening. Writing down your thoughts, playing an instrument, going for a walk - all magical rituals. If you understand that, you'll free yourself from any particular expression of magic and you'll become magic itself. Just do it! (but ofc, that's my viewpoint, the offspring of my experience)

Magic doesn't need to work, you don't have to go learn it, practice it or summon it, it already works. We just have to let it. (letting go, being vulnerable)
But if you like a particular expression of it and you passionately enjoy it for the expression, then by all means, enjoy yourself! ^^

[gunslinger_burrito]

I agree with you that the willpower and choice play a large role in getting things to happen in reality. This approach is very similar to what Jodorowsky and Casteneda talk about. I DO like that approach.

Magic, defined by LaVey (and similarily by Crowley, I'm sure) is, "The change in situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable." He goes on to admit that this statement leaves a large grey area, and I could type my eyes out re-explaining things already covered in this thread. BUT, I think we're talking about two separate things. It should be noted that while rituals ALSO have a large grey area of interpretation, they are, generally speaking, sets of actions with symbolic value with a direct purpose or meaning.

I admit to never having really done any rituals, at least for more than a decade..... but I use lesser magic all the damn time. Getting things to happen as "Second nature" is more efficient in my mind.

So magic, to me, is changing one's own reality in accordance with one's will, through means not normally used by most people. That's the key.

[Derelict78]

which would, using normally accepted methods, be unchangeable."

this part is an add on by LaVey, the rest is almost word for word Crowley. IMO the add on is unnecessary and takes away a big part of what Magick is. Magick is ANYTHING you will. The key is to be conscious of everything you do from getting that job you want to brushing your teeth in the morning to each breath you take. make every act a magical act. This is not easy. Meditation is key. Completely emptying your mind and stilling your body. If you cant control your thoughts and your body how can you expect to control or even live in harmony with the world around you? Meditation is the practice of death and a prerequisite to any magical order worth its salt.
here is some worthwhile writings:
http://deoxy.org/annex/Eight_Lectures_on_Yoga.pdf
In my opinion if you want to practice Magick start with this. There is a reason why it is the first book in Crowley's Liber ABA Magick (book 4).
Ok now IM rambling
We place no reliance
On Virgin or Pigeon;
Our method is science,
Our aim is religion

[gunslinger_burrito]

I'll check it out. It's interesting to me how it sounds similar to what was written in Castaneda's books. I don't think I'd place him in the realm of esoterics, but in the first four books, before they become unquestionably works of fiction, Don Juan teaches him how to become a "warrior," a "sorcerer," and a "man of knowledge." The last two I think are synonymous. Long story short, "Completely emptying your mind and stilling your body" is the same thing as what he writes. Don Juan teaches that if you "stop your internal dialogue" you can more or less see the world for what it is, or as something you've never seen before, and thus interact with it in a purer way. By constantly chatting with yourself, you are reinforcing ideas you have about the world, and thus, interacting with it in a self-prescribed way. Your own perception of the world will become a sort of self-perpetuating idea.

Damn. I can always pick those books up. Great reading. The third and fourth are the best, in my opinion.

[alexa.]

But the mind is clear and void to begin with. If you don't trouble the mind, the mind doesn't trouble you.
And I've always been the one to diss all 'ways' and to go by the way of personal experience. No doubt it requires honesty to oneself, but you can always test it out, so that's how I got what works for me.

I've never read either LaVey, Castaneda or Crowley, so I can't really comment further.

[Derelict78]

I'll check it out. It's interesting to me how it sounds similar to what was written in Castaneda's books. I don't think I'd place him in the realm of esoterics, but in the first four books, before they become unquestionably works of fiction, Don Juan teaches him how to become a "warrior," a "sorcerer," and a "man of knowledge." The last two I think are synonymous. Long story short, "Completely emptying your mind and stilling your body" is the same thing as what he writes. Don Juan teaches that if you "stop your internal dialogue" you can more or less see the world for what it is, or as something you've never seen before, and thus interact with it in a purer way. By constantly chatting with yourself, you are reinforcing ideas you have about the world, and thus, interacting with it in a self-prescribed way. Your own perception of the world will become a sort of self-perpetuating idea.

Damn. I can always pick those books up. Great reading. The third and fourth are the best, in my opinion.

The similarities may stem from Crowley traveling to Mexico in 1900 and studying where he became a 33 degree mason.
Its been years since I have read anything by Castaneda, I should really pick some of his work up again.

[gunslinger_burrito]

It's basically accepted as fact that Castaneda just assembled a bunch of philosophies from various religions and claimed it all to be true.....but that aside, he was such a damn enthralling writer that it doesn't matter to me. The way he presented the ideas clicked with me really well.

[Derelict78]

yeah it was obviously fiction but very good fiction that got the idea across

[metalmariachi]

Not to scoff at your theory of the first dream in the new house coming true but..
It’s been 10 months and neither Kim Kardahsian nor Heidi Klum have come over and screwed my brains out.

MM