KNOBS - VFE // Klein Bottle

[hbombgraphics]

Klein bottle is crazy!
Demo was awesome,

For the components, work, and concept the price seems on point, and even if it isn't there seems to be a market for this exact product.

[D.o.S.]

It's definitely not overpriced for what it is. I think people are just cray cray.

It depends on what your reference point is.

I don't think anyone wants to rehash the discussion on this pedal in particular, but I will say that with regards to this particular demo another ILFer who is not known for, you know, being me (i.e. salty or negative or whatever frowny adjective/gif you want) pointed out that "a lot of the sounds only have one loop or mix super low on everything... it's mainly just feedback loops, which you could get with a standard martix mixer."

Does that make this a bad demo? No! Does this make this a bad pedal? No! Should you feel bad about wanting it or buying it? Fuck No! Is it worth talking discussing it in comparison to other things? Probably!

[askashrub]

It's definitely not overpriced for what it is. I think people are just cray cray.

Is it worth talking discussing it in comparison to other things? Probably!

Nobody is suggesting you stop discussing things and just buy buy buy.
I've just noticed a general bent towards negativity and a lot of assumptions about what goes on behind the scenes.
The vast majority of people that make pedals have good intentions and small margins.

[ritz]

Ugh, much want. Still think it's overpriced.

Your mom is overpriced.

But she's easy to flip.

I talked to my mom, and she says you guys are making a lot of assumptions about what things cost and how much effort goes into selling a "device". She also mentioned a lot of over-head on good knobs. Twss.

[D.o.S.]

The vast majority of people that make pedals have good intentions and small margins.

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise? But "overpriced" can also mean "more expensive than comparable offerings on the market*" rather than "cash grab" or "I just don't want or need this product enough to pay for it." That's not negativity, that's an accurate observation.

*For example (as was said brought up in the other thread) someone could, for example, pay $255 for a Matrise Mixer and get similar functionality -- obviously there are some token differences between this and other similar pieces of gear... the biggest one, for me, against other mixers, is that you can step on it, sort of akin to the Pittsburgh Modular Patch Box, if you like -- and donate the extra $100 to a children's charity or your patreon or whatever directly.

But this might be better suited for the other thread you started on the pedal, rather than your demo thread.

[ritz]

Dang I was only half-complaining. Now I've let the genie out of the Klein bottle or something.

It looks like a mighty fine pedal, just a little more than I want to pay for it right now. I'm sure it's the right price point to sell the pedal and also make some $ for his good cause. Given small margins I assume that inherently means they have to charge a little more than a hypothetical "market rate" might be, otherwise it wouldn't be a very good fundraiser? But I don't know much about pedal making economics, so what do I know. I only know that as a pedal buyer it feels a little overpriced to me

[Jwar]

The Klein Bottle is obviously something a lot of folks are seeing value in. There is 45k raised so far on Kickstarter. If it reaches 50 there will be an optional triple delay which would be more in line with the original idea of the pedal.

[Jwar]

Ahhh its an add on pedal that costs 199 more. Well, darn it.

[Jwar]

There will be a DIY option though! Awesome! Also, he mentions cv control.

"Yes, the foot switches are momentary. It would be really easy to convert them to CV control by adding an N-channel MOSFET. I’ll try to remember to add this to the mod ideas I make for DIY builders.
Some pots are voltage dividers, others are setup as variable resistors. These would be tough to make CV controllable in a musical way.
The custom filter knobs are dual-gang, with one side C10K and the other C100K. This lets me do a 12dB and 6dB slope cuts with minimal parts."

[D.o.S.]

The Klein Bottle is obviously something a lot of folks are seeing value in. There is 45k raised so far on Kickstarter. If it reaches 50 there will be an optional triple delay which would be more in line with the original idea of the pedal.

Yeah I'm sure "loads of people are supporting it" is a good argument towards legitimacy.

I would politely suggest that it's more likely -- especially in the guitar/bass oriented universe -- that there are loads of people who weren't aware of the value of mixers (or matrix mixers) prior to the product being introduced to the market (with accompanying demo to explain to them exactly how to use it).

That doesn't diminish this point, I don't think:

Does that make this a bad demo? No! Does this make this a bad pedal? No! Should you feel bad about wanting it or buying it? Fuck No! Is it worth talking discussing it in comparison to other things? Probably!

[Jwar]

The Klein Bottle is obviously something a lot of folks are seeing value in. There is 45k raised so far on Kickstarter. If it reaches 50 there will be an optional triple delay which would be more in line with the original idea of the pedal.

Yeah I'm sure "loads of people are supporting it" is a good argument towards legitimacy.

I would politely suggest that it's more likely -- especially in the guitar/bass oriented universe -- that there are loads of people who weren't aware of the value of mixers (or matrix mixers) prior to the product being introduced to the market (with accompanying demo to explain to them exactly how to use it).

That doesn't diminish this point, I don't think:

Does that make this a bad demo? No! Does this make this a bad pedal? No! Should you feel bad about wanting it or buying it? Fuck No! Is it worth talking discussing it in comparison to other things? Probably!

Well it certainly shows that people see value in it. I seriously doubt that most folks are ignorant of mixers but I could be wrong. I’ve never been interested in them before. I just like the features I’m reading here.


What’s a comparable product btw?

[D Rock]

I am considering doing the DIY kit with drilled case, but also just considering building a matrix mixer. It seems like that is where all the cool sounds are coming from anyway imo. Either way, really cool pedal, would be really nice for parallel fuzz with the eq knobs.

[D.o.S.]

The Klein Bottle is obviously something a lot of folks are seeing value in. There is 45k raised so far on Kickstarter. If it reaches 50 there will be an optional triple delay which would be more in line with the original idea of the pedal.

Yeah I'm sure "loads of people are supporting it" is a good argument towards legitimacy.

I would politely suggest that it's more likely -- especially in the guitar/bass oriented universe -- that there are loads of people who weren't aware of the value of mixers (or matrix mixers) prior to the product being introduced to the market (with accompanying demo to explain to them exactly how to use it).

That doesn't diminish this point, I don't think:

Does that make this a bad demo? No! Does this make this a bad pedal? No! Should you feel bad about wanting it or buying it? Fuck No! Is it worth talking discussing it in comparison to other things? Probably!

Well it certainly shows that people see value in it. I seriously doubt that most folks are ignorant of mixers but I could be wrong. I’ve never been interested in them before. I just like the features I’m reading here.


What’s a comparable product btw?

Sorry for the delayed response!

Well the Pladask Matrise was already mentioned, but it depends on what you mean by a "comparable product", because you're potentially talking about some very different things: are you talking about a cheap mixer? Are you talking about a stompbox? Eurorack? etc. Because it's important to remember that you can do a lot of this stuff with a normal mixer (more on that later), as long as it has the correct amount of sends that you want. Here's a good read on that here:
http://www.music-tech.com/inserts-vs-effects-sends/

And here's informative thread on TBFX about a 4x4 Matrix Mixer in specific (note the lack of response to the thread, perhaps directly correlated to the fancy demo that shows people how to use the things they spend their money on )
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/the-4x ... is.990222/

And we had a big matrix mixer thread a little while ago, too:
viewtopic.php?f=149&t=54250

But, beyond the Matrise, Here are some similar products (not that they are not the same) to the Klein Bottle.

NSFW: show

The Rucci 3x2 Passive Matrix Mixer: $45
https://reverb.com/uk/item/2336528-3x2- ... i-handmade

The Rebel Technology Mix04: $295 (coverting to dollars)
https://www.rebeltech.org/products/mix-04/

Doepfer A-138m: $165 Dollars (converted from Euros)
http://www.doepfer.de/A138m.htm

the Mackie HMX-56 is discontinued but it springs to mind and can be found cheaply (or could, that's changing a bit I guess as it gets further from it's discontinuation date):
https://reverb.com/uk/item/2777664-mack ... trix-mixer
And on the Mackie tip, as already mentioned, there are loads of proper mixers that will allow you to make feedback loops, etc. But, like I said in the other thread, you can't necessarily step on any of the things I've just described.

So, again, I'm going back to this point:

it's more likely -- especially in the guitar/bass oriented universe -- that there are loads of people who weren't aware of the value of mixers (or matrix mixers) prior to the product being introduced to the market (with accompanying demo to explain to them exactly how to use it).

Which doesn't diminish the value of the pedal, or suggest that the dude is trying to pull one over on people regarding the price, or anything like that. Just that the "unbridled meh" knobs referred to in the other thread is maybe not pessimism or negativity but simply a lack of "wow!" regarding doing audio things you could already do.

[UglyCasanova]

I seriously doubt that most folks are ignorant of mixers but I could be wrong. I’ve never been interested in them before.

This is one of my favorite jwar moments.

[Jwar]

I've talked with Peter and we worked something out. So, I'll be able to report my findings as well. I've looked at all the products you've listed DOS and I get what you're saying. Maybe this is just a better solution for some and not worth it for others. Either way, I'm always happy to see someone making something a success.