Well, at least, they're releasing the Amelia Earhart files...

[Strange Tales]

Did Nixon's plan include a government agency for keeping things in line?

It's weird to think Nixon came up with that health insurance plan still. I'll admit I didn't actually know about his original plan until a couple months ago.

[jrfox92]

What it really doesn't account for is self-employment and the difference between gross and net income. Fox and Jwar aren't wrong, but they're blaming the wrong people/institutions, I think.

The ACA is a colossal failure and probably the worst part of the Obama presidency, not because it exists, but because it doesn't go far enough towards allowing affordable access to health care which, while not a Constitutional right, is pretty much agreed upon to be a fairly obvious benefit of living in a society that is fortunate enough to swing it. In order for this system to be able to work at all, they needed to have a government option that would act as a control. I know people cringe at things that evoke "socialism" but it's the only way to keep, say, health insurance companies in line if you're going to make everyone buy their product (which, ew anyway, but that's a different story).

The reason insurance rates are skyrocketing? Because health insurance companies are claiming that they didn't have data on all the people who became newly insured under Obamacare.

Think about that for a second.
*All the people who couldn't get health insurance before (pick your reason: preexisting conditions, expense, etc.) now have to have it, which means in the long and short of it insurance companies are losing money, because they're paying out claims to people they simply wouldn't have covered before, so they're raising rates, and they're sticking people with the bill because they don't have another entity (like, say, a government agency) who can offer an artificially competitive rate to keep health insurance prices low. *

That's fucked up.

People will bitch and say that isn't a free market system, and they're right, but I would think that something like health care absolutely shouldn't be governed according to the free market.

I can see both sides, honestly.
Mostly, I blame everything/everyone because it's the punk thing to do.
But, yeah, that's why I said "universal health care, my ass." I'd probably be much more forgiving/accepting if they just went all the way instead of this broken system that Obama managed to make even worse.

[D.o.S.]

The problem, as far as I can see, is that despite having a super majority the Democrats delivered a compromise to the Republicans at the start (this would be like '09-'10). The original ACA bill was a whole lot better for people, and a whole lot worse for insurance companies, and Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, establishment Dems et. al. decided that they would make concessions to their original (already full of concessions) plan... despite the fact that they had a near supermajority for two years after 2008.

Whether that's because they didn't realize they were in for eight years of pure obstructionism, because they didn't want to alienate the doners that come from the pockets of the health insurance industry, because they don't believe in single-payer health care... it's probably a confluence of those things, but it was profoundly disappointing, to say the least.

[taco satori]

DoS dropping lots of science [edit: as is D'Arcy one post below]

[Disarm D'arcy]

Being afraid of socialism is just a way to be coerced to pay for a product no one can live without, only at a premium because someone with enough capital to venture in such a business is gonna want serious interest. And the insurance is your enemy, their interest (profit) is entirely antagonistic to yours (receiving the best standards of care, that are inherently more expensive as no care or substandard care).

Again France's socialized medicine is #1 in terms of quality according to WHO, and has been consistently for decades. It's also, according to OECD, the cheapest par capita. And all the BS I read about it constantly. Like this legend I have to go to the doctor the state says I have to go to. I choose every goddamn doctor I want to be treated by, unless in the ER or I'm picked up by an ambulance after a car crash. I even choose the brand / type (pills or powders or drops or whatever) of medicine at the pharmacy (I can even take name brand stuff instead of generic no questions asked, the state pays for my tinfoil hat). I have every right to refuse treatment. I also have every right to overpay for the same doctor and not be refunded by social security. It just works. Get some in your country and stop the BS.

I'm actually against mandatory private insurances. Not because mandatory like Jrfox, but because private. If it has to be mandatory, it should be a tax funded government run system so we all pay for it equally and all benefit from it equally and have democratic control over it, without a middle man with a gold plated cellphone putting a large cut inside his pocket. But at least, the sector is regulated, premiums can't rise more than 0,x% each year. If you get hit by an uninsured driver / medical professional or whatever, the state indemnifies you and they go after the culprit in their own time. Again. Simple efficient. I don't get why it's not the same everywhere.

[JonnyAngle]

What it really doesn't account for is self-employment and the difference between gross and net income. Fox and Jwar aren't wrong, but they're blaming the wrong people/institutions, I think.

The ACA is a colossal failure and probably the worst part of the Obama presidency, not because it exists, but because it doesn't go far enough towards allowing affordable access to health care which, while not a Constitutional right, is pretty much agreed upon to be a fairly obvious benefit of living in a society that is fortunate enough to swing it. In order for this system to be able to work at all, they needed to have a government option that would act as a control. I know people cringe at things that evoke "socialism" but it's the only way to keep, say, health insurance companies in line if you're going to make everyone buy their product (which, ew anyway, but that's a different story).

The reason insurance rates are skyrocketing? Because health insurance companies are claiming that they didn't have data on all the people who became newly insured under Obamacare.

Think about that for a second.
*All the people who couldn't get health insurance before (pick your reason: preexisting conditions, expense, etc.) now have to have it, which means in the long and short of it insurance companies are losing money, because they're paying out claims to people they simply wouldn't have covered before, so they're raising rates, and they're sticking people with the bill because they don't have another entity (like, say, a government agency) who can offer an artificially competitive rate to keep health insurance prices low. *

That's fucked up.

People will bitch and say that isn't a free market system, and they're right, but I would think that something like health care absolutely shouldn't be governed according to the free market.

This is very true. I believe that the free market would work in the health care system, HOWEVER, the health care system has never been close to a free market system.

In MN, at least, all health care insurance companies must be non profit. That sounds great, but what that means is they make a profit and then have to frivolously spend it somewhere before the end of the year.

The govt is making it harder for the insurance companies, so they're starting to bail in MN.

I also think that all states need to get on the same set of rules and regs.

what the fuck is up with "networks?" Thats the biggest load of BS ever. Dr A's surgery will be covered, but the same surgery from Dr. B is not.

[JonnyAngle]

I don't get why it's not the same everywhere.

The problem is we can't go from black to white overnight. If all health insurance was free tomorrow, the system would go bankrupt immediately.

[Strange Tales]

Being afraid of socialism is just a way to be coerced to pay for a product no one can live without, only at a premium because some one with enough capital to venture in such a business is gonna want serious interest. Again France's socialized medicine is #1 in terms of quality according to WHO, and has been consistently for decades. It's also, according to OECD, the cheapest par capita. And all the BS I read about it constantly. Like this legend I have to go to the doctor the state says I have to go. I choose every goddamn doctor I want to be treated by, unless in the ER. I even choose the brand / type (pills or powders or drops or whatever) of medicine at the pharmacy. I have every right to refuse treatment. I also have every to overpay for the same doctor and not be refunded by social security. It just works. Get some in your country and stop the BS.

I'm actually against mandatory private insurances. Not because mandatory like Jrfox, but because private. If it has to be mandatory, it should be a tax funded government run system so we all pay for it equally and all benefit from it equally, without a middle man with a gold plated cellphone putting a large cut inside his pocket. But at least, the sector is regulated, premiums can't rise more than x% each year. If you get hit by an uninsured driver / medical professional, the state indemnifies you and they go after the culprit in their own time. Again. Simple efficient. I don't get why it's not the same everywhere.

Out of curiosity, how much do you pay for that?

I mean, something like that will never pass in the US because so many people are afraid of the "socialism/communism/whatever isn't old white people taking exorbitant amounts of money from me" which is a damn shame. Shit, my grandmother thinks that Obama's final act will be forcing her out of assisted living. Like, legitimately believes Obama is gonna show up with a renters truck on his final day in office and force her out.

[D.o.S.]

ST, that's kind of bullshit though -- because we have socialized health care already. That's what fucking Medicare is. We've had it for 50 years and we have successfully fucked it up by A) running the financing and administration of it into the ground and B) only allowing it to citizens who are 65 and older -- the people who, by virtue of old age, get sick more often and need more frequent care.

There is nothing stopping Congress from expanding Medicare's statutorily guaranteed benefits downward. Literally fucking nothing. The only reason they can't do it is because the existing health insurance establishment would have to figure out how to deal with it, and they certainly don't want that.

what the fuck is up with "networks?" Thats the biggest load of BS ever. Dr A's surgery will be covered, but the same surgery from Dr. B is not.

here's a fun quirk. Ever since I got my own health insurance (rather than my family's), I've never had a primary care physician, because my health care coverage doesn't feature any doctors in my network where I live. What it does cover, however, is any costs that stem from the walk-in doctor's office/hospital branch down the street from me... so I can go there if I'm feeling really unwell, but I can't actually see the same doctor reliably and haven't since I was 18 or so.

The mind boggles.

[Strange Tales]

Yea you're right, I just want to bitch about old people because living around them in NJ is an echo chamber of the worst possible opinions. Someone told me our one Indian employee is going to bomb and kill us all and I've just never been so sad and disgusted that they would want to be racist against the guy (lovely guy), or that they thought they could confide their racism with me.

[Disarm D'arcy]

Johnny Angle. You know we did right? In 1946. Are you guys lagging behind that much? Do you forget you have monetary sovereignty and thanks to USD being the reference, you guys can print a shitload of bills and 60% of it is paid by the rest of the world?

Strange_Tales. Basically comes out of your paycheck, just like taxes or insurance premiums. It's proportional to what you earn, and the more you earn the more you pay. That's half to 60% of the social security budget. 20% more is the general contribution to social security, which is a tax on what you earn, no matter the origin (paycheck, capital, interests, whatever). You can have a private insurance on top of health stuff that is not necessary (like prettier glasses, or LASIK like I just got). The rest comes out of taxes that are not specific to social security (income tax, VAT, taxes on tobacco and oil...).
This pays for every brand of social security which are : health; maternity and paternity leaves; medical leaves (yes you get paid partly by your employer and partly by social security when you are sick and unable to work); disability; family allocations (yes, if you have a big family, you get moniez to help out because we like children to be comfy); work accidents and sickness caused by work conditions (such as asbestose); retirement pensions... And I think that's about it.
It's pricey. But cancer is too. An autistic child is too. A disabled grandparent too. And you never know when it's gonna hit you. It's the price of security. But again, at least for health, cheapest per capita.

[D.o.S.]

Also: French footwear has no laces so they don't have any bootstraps to pull themselves up by.

[Disarm D'arcy]

No but seriously, sometime it's hard to remember you guys actually have a GDP per capita (around 60k) closer to Norway's (around 70k) than France (a little over 40k). With so much wealth at hand, there's no doubt you guys can afford whatever the French can afford. You just have to accept that instead of paying out of your ass to a private company, it's nicer to pay a little less out of your ass to the government (that you democratically control, unlike a private company). Taxes are not bad. Taxes are your friend. Public services are your friends. Social security is your friend. Taxes pay for all that. And there's a chance that by switching from premiums to taxes, you guys will have a little more at the end of month in your pocket and will actually witness an increase in the quality of your all life, much like the Scandos, the French and all their lazy mediterranean friends.

[Strange Tales]

FUCK YOU SLASH TAXES TRICKLE DOWN

[Disarm D'arcy]

I need my weaponry for my government is tyrannic and I want to overthrow it in the name of your father that dwelleh in the heavens.