GIVE ME BLACK METAL!!!

[SPACERITUAL]

Oh,and I don't think anyone's mentioned my namesake,Arch Goat. They are truly blasphemous and awesome

PLUS THEY HAVE GONGS

[jfrey]

some post-black

Please explain the facets of what makes post black post black and why it is so

Prefixing a genre with "post" means that it uses the instrumentation of that genre to make music that can't technically be considered that genre by strictest definitions.

"Post" genres often overlap with progressive and experimental genres. Certain "post" genres have developed commonly understood sounds, while others have split into different musical directions through blending with other styles. Classification at that point becomes convoluted as certain groups may have equal claim to several genre classifications. Particular classification within "post" genres is debated heavily.

[Bassus Sanguinis]

some post-black

Please explain the facets of what makes post black post black and why it is so

Prefixing a genre with "post" means that it uses the instrumentation of that genre to make music that can't technically be considered that genre by strictest definitions.

"Post" genres often overlap with progressive and experimental genres. Certain "post" genres have developed commonly understood sounds, while others have split into different musical directions through blending with other styles. Classification at that point becomes convoluted as certain groups may have equal claim to several genre classifications. Particular classification within "post" genres is debated heavily.

No, sorry, You've got it all wrong. The contemporary black metal has been POST BLACK METAL ever since Gylve took the day job at the Oslo post office.

[Big Mon]

No, sorry, You've got it all wrong. The contemporary black metal has been POST BLACK METAL ever since Gylve took the day job at the Oslo post office.
:p

[onelouderash]

I can't believe this hasn't been posted yet.

EDIT: I give up on embedding.

[Blackened Soul]

some post-black

Please explain the facets of what makes post black post black and why it is so

Prefixing a genre with "post" means that it uses the instrumentation of that genre to make music that can't technically be considered that genre by strictest definitions.

"Post" genres often overlap with progressive and experimental genres. Certain "post" genres have developed commonly understood sounds, while others have split into different musical directions through blending with other styles. Classification at that point becomes convoluted as certain groups may have equal claim to several genre classifications. Particular classification within "post" genres is debated heavily.

Fail!
I did not ask for what the post tag means in a general form. I know what it means and have read what you just said there before by many others.
Put it this way if you are going to use the term you have to do better explaining it.

[jfrey]

Fail!
I did not ask for what the post tag means in a general form. I know what it means and have read what you just said there before by many others.
Put it this way if you are going to use the term you have to do better explaining it.

Perhaps you can tell me then what you don't understand then so I can explain it better to you. I'm not really sure what you don't get.

I'll try to explain it more specifically and less conceptually since I'm guessing that's what you're looking for.

First lets break black metal down into the components that define it (general list, not thorough).

Primary (always or almost always):
1. "Excessive" use of the minor sound
2. Emphasis on a "cold" sound (Treble, harsh distortion/fuzz)
3. Technique (blast beats, trem picking)

Secondary (usually but not absolute):
1. Screeched vocals
2. Ideology
3. Low production (also ties in with the cold sound)
4. Chord inversions (used frequently and emphasizes the sound but not required)

For our purposes discard the secondary characteristics. Something can be considered black metal without all of those things, however cannot be called black metal without at least some of the primary characteristics (We're also ignoring the idea of "true" black metal which would require the secondary characteristics, or would relegate the subject to a vague category like "extreme" metal).

So, if you were to write a song using enough (enough is a vague line, one of the reasons for the amount of debate which surrounds post-genres) of the primary characteristics to qualify as black metal, however composed in a structure or style unlike the conventions of black metal, you could call that post black.

Perhaps that's still somewhat vague, and I'm not sure I like how I explained that, but that's the gist of it and I don't feel like writing more. I'm sure you can find a better explanation just by googling "post black metal"

[Archgoat]

All I know is,if it's grim and blasphemous,I love it! Thanks be to Lucifer! Drive a nail through the chode of the Lamb!

[Blackened Soul]

Fail!
I did not ask for what the post tag means in a general form. I know what it means and have read what you just said there before by many others.
Put it this way if you are going to use the term you have to do better explaining it.

Perhaps you can tell me then what you don't understand then so I can explain it better to you. I'm not really sure what you don't get.

I'll try to explain it more specifically and less conceptually since I'm guessing that's what you're looking for.

First lets break black metal down into the components that define it (general list, not thorough).

Primary (always or almost always):
1. "Excessive" use of the minor sound
2. Emphasis on a "cold" sound (Treble, harsh distortion/fuzz)
3. Technique (blast beats, trem picking)

Secondary (usually but not absolute):
1. Screeched vocals
2. Ideology
3. Low production (also ties in with the cold sound)
4. Chord inversions (used frequently and emphasizes the sound but not required)

For our purposes discard the secondary characteristics. Something can be considered black metal without all of those things, however cannot be called black metal without at least some of the primary characteristics (We're also ignoring the idea of "true" black metal which would require the secondary characteristics, or would relegate the subject to a vague category like "extreme" metal).

So, if you were to write a song using enough (enough is a vague line, one of the reasons for the amount of debate which surrounds post-genres) of the primary characteristics to qualify as black metal, however composed in a structure or style unlike the conventions of black metal, you could call that post black.

Perhaps that's still somewhat vague, and I'm not sure I like how I explained that, but that's the gist of it and I don't feel like writing more. I'm sure you can find a better explanation just by googling "post black metal"

Alright.. That is much better and I did google it and what I came up with makes me depressed

[Bassus Sanguinis]

the Post-Black Metal... The Post- tag can be used instead of Modern-, 3rd wave- or such name tag to better identifying certain Black Metal bands with more ...evolved musical aesthetics from a random 2nd wave Scandinavian Black Metal band. Yes. That way we know if were talking of a black metal band with characteristic traits of the seminal bands like Hellhammer or Bathory, or bands like Samael, Dissection, Abruptum or Beherit or does it perhaps come closer to Gnaw Their Tongues, The True Black Dawn, Death Spell Omega or Jumalhämärä.

But two notions, first, I prefer not to use the post- tag, since... well, when in future defining the slight but noticeable shifts in scene, where can You go onwards from post? To the Post-post-black metal? But hey, it's okay. That's why I dropped the Postman Gylve there.

Second, ALL of the characteristic traits You referred to as primary factors of Black Metal are to be found not earlier as in 90's upraising of the Black Metal scene typically associated with the Scandinavia. Nor are they really found everywhere throughout t h2nd wave Black Metal bands. Many bands took those aesthetics to the extreme, yes, but that's not what is making anybody necessarily anything other than really fast paced polka band. Not that I have anything against polka.

When defining Black Metal the bottom line stays today: No Satan = No Black Metal.

The equation really IS as simple as that. It is, in a sense. Sure, Dark Throne seems to have different Satan behind their act than Gorgoroth or Behexen. Who cares? It might be the one that made Robert Johnson great, so it's probably different from Burzum Satan, too.

It still HAS to be there. Without some real antagonist transgression and ideological commitment of a sort You can't have Black Metal. You'll have but a band that's wearing black, possible studs and rivets, too, posing with a skull and playing really fast - or slow - and screaming, and sporting a funny logo with a name from the Lord of the Rings that You have to study for hours and eventually just believe it says what You are told it says. But everybody knows that's not necessarily Black Metal.



onwards with music, in Tom G. Warriors words: UH!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrI_DGNsXH4[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogxqqKFbUVY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrRi25jZRFY[/youtube]

[jfrey]

the Post-Black Metal... The Post- tag can be used instead of Modern-, 3rd wave-

Post, modern, and 3rd wave are all entirely different things. Modern and 3rd wave refer to the same thing now, however in 10 years what is current at that time will be modern and will not refer to 3rd wave, as "modern" always denotes what is current or recent. "Post" is different as well. The term when applied to genre is often confused with a qualification of time, as in "after _blank_" however in the context of classification "post" is referring to a stylistic shift, making it distinct from modern which refers to time, and 3rd wave which refers to generation.

Second, ALL of the characteristic traits You referred to as primary factors of Black Metal are to be found not earlier as in 90's upraising of the Black Metal scene typically associated with the Scandinavia. Nor are they really found everywhere throughout the 2nd wave Black Metal bands.

Though those characteristics are not found everywhere within the second wave they are definitely present. And, it wasn't until the second wave that black metal really began to flesh out as a genre. The first wave was technically closer to thrash metal than what would become understood as black metal, and it would be more accurate to describe them as blackened thrash.

When defining Black Metal the bottom line stays today: No Satan = No Black Metal.

The problems I see with this are: If you removed the vocals from a song it would still be the same genre, whereas if you removed the instrumentation it would not. You can create music of any type - it could be folk for all it matters - about satan and that would not make it black metal. And, this statement dismisses a good portion of the genre. Ideology can only be a secondary qualifier. You could say that something is satanic black metal, or pagan black metal, or national socialist black metal, etc. but it is all under the umbrella of black metal.

Not to argue. Although maybe that's what I'm doing. I just find genre classification and evolution fascinating.

[Big Mon]

See,these are the kind of debates I love to see on ILF. No one's being a dick to each other and both arguments are legit. Good on ya,jfrey and Bassus!

[Bassus Sanguinis]

Yeah, there's definitely the tone of brotherly fuzz love around these parts of the internet.

Wonderful, point well made, not going to argue at length though I beg to differ (a bit). Jfrey got a really good point in specific use of the terms, yes, there can be significant difference between Post- and Modern- and 3rd wave- tags, when used properly. I'm for some mad reason used to see them used sloppily, plus I don't see . Perhaps everybody else does.

I could still claim the proper use of the term Post- is what the latin term means, but since it seems to have turned into a subgenre labeling tag with referental meaning of its own, it would be embarrasing for me to pointlessly underlinine I'm not too enthusiastic user of the term.

The transition bands Mayhem, Bathory, Beherit, Dissection... the bands that were already at work in as early as -89 can be seen as the fathers of the 2nd Wave Black Metal. What was so special in them was the dedication to their cause. At least to me, and - in my own biased experience - to a great deal of the musicians of these bands as well as to persons involved in the active demo casette trading and correspondence with the bands. I suppose my point is that the music is supposed to go with the bands' ideology - not the other way around. That was the reason why a lot of guys quit playing death metal, which was supposed to be just music, and decidedly claimed their act, dress code, political and philosophical point of view, cover art and so on Black Metal.

If we don't share the point of view here, we'll share at least mutual disagreement with each other.

[jfrey]

It's all cool. Even if we have different ideas, what's good is that the conversation has actual points and reasoned arguments. One of the reasons I pretty much stopped going on the UG forums is you couldn't have a conversation like that.

Anyway, as you said, onwards with the music

I don't think anyones posted any Carpathian Forest yet (the audio is a little messed up, so look for this song elsewhere - couldn't find a better link)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMVewEdrGeM[/youtube]

[Bassus Sanguinis]

It's all cool. Even if we have different ideas, what's good is that the conversation has actual points and reasoned arguments. One of the reasons I pretty much stopped going on the UG forums is you couldn't have a conversation like that.

Oh how many times I have wanted this debate to go like this.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpLfSho4-Nw[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uK6qBpssKQ[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBkBAp6uYg[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06zdo_RGUbI[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhyemKOAueE[/youtube]