P&W gear manufacturers

dase · Post by **dase** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:48 am

yeah because a gay pedal builder is the same thing, with the same amount of advantages handed to them in our world, as someone connected to a megachurch...

rfurtkamp · Post by **rfurtkamp** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:50 am

It's not about advantage, it's about discriminating against a belief that the individual has.

It's ugly regardless of what side of the fence it comes from or how it's justified.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:55 am

If you're a white Christian member of a big money church and you want to start a business, your way is paved and it's a success, even if you're shitty and don't deserve it. Not many social groups or ideologies will get that kind of boost or blind support that the Christian/Mormon community is known for.

dase · Post by **dase** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:59 am

I said 'advantage' because I wanted to avoid the dreaded word 'privilege'.

Full disclosure: I actually work for one of the biggest churches in australia, and I think they do a lot of good in the world. But I won't buy from any christian pedal companies because I absolutely loathe megachurches and praise and worship music, and especially loathe the fact that on places like talkbass you can't even remotely say 'that's not for me' without people jumping down your throat about it being 'discrimination but like in reverse' or whatever.

I really don't see the problem with someone wanting to be informed about what they buy based on their beliefs. I'm sure the big companies will survive and the poor little church guitarists crying into their $400 tubescreamer clones about some shitty kids on an internet forum not liking it will get over having their feelings hurt.

Dark Barn · Post by **Dark Barn** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:00 am

Derelict78 wrote:Implying that a company is shitty because the owners of said business or users of said business's products have different beliefs than you is kind of shitty, in my book.
93/93

If they make it that easy to know what their religious beliefs are, just by clicking to their product page, then it becomes a choice for the consumer.

It's not like anyone is stalking these builders to see where they spend their Sundays.

Dark Barn · Post by **Dark Barn** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:04 am

rfurtkamp wrote:If I had to agree politically or religiously or spiritually with every person or thing I did business with...couldn't live.

Generally people overcome this by not making it a point of discussion in the first place. I don't ask the bus driver what he believes in, he doesn't ask me, I pay the fare and take a seat.

Sparrow · Post by **Sparrow** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:06 am

imo .. if you want to be religious. it should be YOUR thing. like .. an Inner .. Self .. kinda thing.
i don't want to judge anyone's personal values. it they're not being an Asshole!
and .. i don't want to be pestered with YOUR personal beliefs.

i want to buy a guitar pedal.

i don't want to buy your whole world views/ opinions and .. then a guitar pedal.
it's like ... do you want some applause, and a pat on the back for trying to portrait that you're "HONEST"?

YOU SHOULD BE HONEST! that's what good people are.

rfurtkamp · Post by **rfurtkamp** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:09 am

There's boosts and blind support from all sorts of communities for their own. I remember

It's not a white Christian exclusive.

And their businesses fail too.

Seen it many times, even with megachurch or LDS support.

And in not making it a point of discussion, sure.

But it's advertised on both conservative and liberal businesses etc.

This is just "let's slam Christians because it's a safe-ish place to do so given music industry" vices hiding in a virtuous guise.

And FWIW, I'm as far from any of those people as one can get. I just know hate when I see it.

I just want a product as well - I don't care if it's a small business or a Christian business or a gay business, or a business founded on principles of exploitation.

dase · Post by **dase** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:11 am

rfurtkamp wrote:

This is just "let's slam Christians because it's a safe-ish place to do so given music industry" vices hiding in a virtuous guise.

where on earth are you getting that from 'I personally don't want to support those companies?'

Do you not make any ethical or whatever else decisions on anything you do? The shoes you buy, where you get your groceries or anything like that?

If you don't that's cool, but there are those of us who do and want to know about it, what's wrong with that?

goroth · Post by **goroth** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:13 am

If a company's beliefs are out there then they become part of your buying decision. Either you say fuck it, and you buy it regardless, or you put your foot down and you don't buy it. But you can't avoid it once the knowledge is available. And not being able to take a stand on everything is not a valid reason to not take a stand on anything.

P&W dudes probably aren't going to buy a Left Hand Path any time soon, and Burzum probably isn't going to run his Casio through a Holy Fire overdrive. Or maybe they will. Who cares. The market is so big that people have the luxury of choice, and not purchasing a pedal based on the maker's ideology is a logical part of a purchase decision, just as colour, graphics, control layout, enclosure size also are, despite the fact that they don't affect the sound either.

Dead Comic · Post by **Dead Comic** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:14 am

rfurtkamp wrote:I just want a product as well - I don't care if it's a small business or a Christian business or a gay business, or a business founded on principles of exploitation.

"gay business"

rfurtkamp · Post by **rfurtkamp** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:17 am

Getting it from "I don't want to support them because they're Christian" - not because they don't pay their workers well, or don't deliver a quality product, or have customer service issues, or don't charge a reasonable rate, or whatever.

It's "I don't like their religion, so let's boycott" - I think JHS are scumbags who overcharge, but Jesus doesn't weigh in on my desire to not purchase from them.

Let us be real: ILF's readership is EXTREMELY left. You're going to get immediate support from the peanut gallery on almost any topic that bashes Christians, Republicans, etc.

That's where I'm coming from. It's very, very obvious, as much as I generally like the place.

dase · Post by **dase** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:19 am

dude, even the christians I work for make all their business decisions based on ethical investment principles.

But if you're seeing some kind of leftist witch hunt in here then you and I have such differing perspectives than it's probably best we just drop it rather than shout in to the void.

Anyone got a list of gay businesses I can send my money to instead?

rfurtkamp · Post by **rfurtkamp** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:22 am

You could ask these guys, I'm sure they have members who want your money!

http://www.nglcc.org/

dub · Post by **dub** » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:24 am

Life on the big bad capitalist rock we all suffer upon is a faustian bargain, we all draw our own lines in the sand where we personally feel comfortable.

I have no problems giving money to people with different beliefs to my own. If they make those beliefs part of their brand, then that is making those things part of my personal brand, and my purchase is more directly helping them to prosthelytize. I'm not super comfortable with that.

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P&W gear manufacturers

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