Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation



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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby goroth » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:33 am

UglyCasanova wrote:
Jwar wrote:
goroth wrote:
UglyCasanova wrote:
Benn Roe wrote:unfortunately a few men ending up falsely accused is the price we have to pay to make sure more men who are rapists end up facing justice.

That is morally abhorrent.

Why is it abhorrent?
Dudes have been largely getting away with all sorts of violence towards women since time began.
That is abhorrent.
Current statistics about sexual violence, and eventual legal consequences for perpetrators of sexual violence, show that we as a society have a view about sexual violence that is abhorrent.
If a few innocent men get caught up in the attempt to redress this, in what way is that abhorrent?
Justice is an imperfect instrument.
We as a society try and improve this, so that innocent people stay out of jail, and that folks who get up to no good go to jail. Some of the laws are relatively good at this, and some aren't.
In the case of sexual violence are laws are so abysmally bad at prosecuting criminals almost anything we can do to right that is going, on the whole, to be a good thing.

Pretty sure believing women/the victim of sexual violence, is a fairly painless place to start.


Ehh. It is morally wrong to send a man to jail if he’s innocent. I think that’s what he was talking about.


Yes. There's a big, big difference between not being convicted due to lack of evidence VS being wrongfully convicted without any evidence, even though I agree with you that rape is a big, big problem because evidence is not necessarily always easy to come by in such a crime. I just don't think this is the sort of problem where you can morally justify breaking a few eggs to make an omelet. At least I don't want to live under a state that justifies imprisonment in that manner.


I said nothing about no evidence.
I am not insinuating that random dudes off the street should be jailed without a trial.
What I am saying is as follows:
1) This is a serious crime where the vast majority perpetrators get away scot-free.
2) This is one of the only crimes I can think of off the top of my head where the victim is, by definition of her gender, our stupid fucking hangups about sexuality, and the stupid law, from the beginning not believed nor taken seriously.
3) We cannot redress the first problem without coming to terms with the second.
4) Our justice system is imperfect. This is a given in all justice systems. Innocent people go to jail every day, in Norway, in Sweden, in the States, you name it. This should not be a reason to sit on our asses and do nothing about points one, two and three. If we start to prosecute even a fraction of those fuckups then the law of averages says that more innocent individuals will be punished. At this point I don't care.

Here is at least part of my argument in the form of a handy dandy youtube video.



Every last one of you posting in this thread knows someone who has experienced sexual violence. Unless you live in a doom cave with only your Sunn amps for company this is an unavoidable truth. If you don't think you fit into that category then maybe you should try talking to some of your friends and loved ones. How many of them have seen the perpetrator convicted in a court of law?

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Last edited by goroth on Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby dubkitty » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:55 am

this. when i was coming up in the 1970s i was stunned at how many of my female friends had their rape story.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby dubkitty » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:59 am

aens_wife wrote:PPS - I am only partially joking about castration.


so only one ball, then? :thumb:
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby UglyCasanova » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:01 am

I don't think we're really disagreeing, Goroth. I'm reacting to people who say "it's fine if some people go to jail regardless of being innocent as long as that lowers the rape statistics as a whole" because that A) doesn't correlate and B) gives more leeway for those who are, unfortunately, crooked enough to spread false accusations, and that currupts the system. That does not mean I think the judicial system is good as is. We need to allocate more resources to prevent rape from happening in the first place. And yes, I know rape victims. My ex was raped. I believe her (obviously). The court did not (not enough evidence, without me going into details on why that is). She slept with a knife under her pillow for years after. Nightmares, panic attacks, you name it. I would love nothing more than for that dude to rot away forever (even though that's impossible due to our sentencing laws on rape being ridiculously low, which truly is a shame), but I don't believe he should be sentenced without evidence. Believing people you know is not the same as thinking it's okay to imprison someone without evidence.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby Eivind August » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:12 am

I think people are saying "it's fine if some people go to jail regardless of being innocent..." (a simplification, obvs) because that's how the current law system works many places. Circumstancial evidence and testimony are imperfect forms of evidence, but evidence nevertheless. And sadly, this sometimes leads to people being wrongfully imprisoned. Nobody wants this, but it's an inherent flaw in the system (that is hopefully being improved in modern courts). But, more importantly, in many cases, it can lead to a rapist being sent to prison. I'm not an utilitarian in the sense that I'm not inherently for letting some people be falsely imprisoned in order to create the maximum good for the most persons, but pragmatically this is how the world (or the justice system) works now. As an aside, this whole debate reminds me of the whole "that's only anecdotal evidence"-thing, which somehow has gotten to mean (for some people) "your experience is not valid as evidence". Which sucks.

But, bottom line for me: I don't see this discussion surfacing with other crimes as often as it does with rape cases. I find that problematic. I'm all for the mob not being judge and jury based on hearsay, but to me that is not the same as spreading doubt whenever someone is accused of rape. This is what the 'believe women'-thing stems from. As the statistics show, the vast majority of rape accusations are true. There is little reason to openly doubt such a claim, even though one should obviously be aware of inconsistencies and whatever. If someone says that they were raped, they are most probably telling the truth, and publicly doubting their testimony isn't helping anyone. As I stated earlier, this is the reason why many rapes are never reported.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby UglyCasanova » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:15 am

So, we agree? *thinking emoji*

Edit: maybe except this part:

Eivind August wrote:As an aside, this whole debate reminds me of the whole "that's only anecdotal evidence"-thing, which somehow has gotten to mean (for some people) "your experience is not valid as evidence". Which sucks.


While I agree that it sucks, experience is not alone evidence because it's inherently ridden with subjectivity. That being said, I'm a little interested in restorative justice as a concept and think the victim's statement and experience should be taken into account when sentencing someone (who has been found guilty based on objective evidence).
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby Eivind August » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:38 am

Oh yeah, I wasn't replying directly to you babe, just felt like clarifying my take on the whole "innocent people in jail" thing which was debated over the past few pages.

And yes, I'm not saying anecdotal evidence should always be taken at face value. Just noting that in recent internet discussions I've seen, anecdotal evidence is a tag that is sometimes put on someones argument to invalidate it without further discussion. If many people have the same anecdotal evidence, then there's clearly a problem even if it's not quantifiable.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby goroth » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:41 am

goroth wrote:
I said nothing about no evidence.
I am not insinuating that random dudes off the street should be jailed without a trial.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby UglyCasanova » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:43 am

Cool.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby Dapper Bandit » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:07 am

Having read through I'm not sure I've seen anyone advocating the imprisonment of the innocent, unfortunately wrongful convictions are a thing and should be seen as a reminder that the judicial system can always improve.

For example, all reports of rape could be taken seriously at the point of report with the utmost care being taken to respect the highly emotional nature of the crime as far as treatment of the victim. There are far too many instances of these reports being handled in the worst way by law enforcement to be acceptable.

At the risk of sounding controversial, using statistics of falsely reported rapes considering how many go unreported is verging on the irresponsible and feeds back into the issue of the crimes being unreported. Let's treat rape and sexual assault like the serious crime it is (how many victims of theft are told they dressed in a provocatively wealthy manner by the police?). That will lead to the percentage of unreported instances going down and by using due process the false reports can be sifted out and charges brought to suit.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby Jwar » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:15 am

I actually fully support castration of sex offenders of any nature. I'm in full agreement here with most of you guys, I think maybe we aren't understanding each other though. What I don't support is not using due process. There unfortunately are those who are trying to just get attention from what has been going on, but it's few and far between, so it's really a non issue.

My mother was abused, as I've mentioned several times when this comes up. When she was little, her brother raped her, her sister held her down and her other brother did some stuff she hasn't told me. This went on for years and she actually doesn't remember a lot of it. When she approached her mother about it, she basically called her a liar and told her that she didn't want that shame in her family. This is what we are dealing with in this world. People not being able to get help because their are being forced to feel shameful for something they had no part in other than being a victim. For the first time in my lifetime, women are actually taking a big stand against this horrible stuff and I applaud them. I've always wanted to help and just didn't know how. Especially when you read horrifying stories like posted before about the tests not even being tested! Insane!

The other day my mother told me something, and I'm not even sure what brought it up. When I was little, she screamed at me for holding my younger sister. She said "get your hands off of her"! I didn't remember that and I was like 10 I think, maybe younger. I wasn't doing anything but holding her as a loving brother would do with a baby. With what happened to my mother though, her perception of reality has been extremely screwed up. She apologized to me. I was shocked and I told her "mom, you did whatever you felt was right regardless of if it was actually happening. I would have rather you done that then just ignore a feeling you had". I never did anything like that, but hearing about my mothers pain at a very young age (like 8) changed who I am. I never, ever have looked at anyone (other than assholes who deserve it) in any violent way or sexually violent way and I thank my mother for not continuing the cycle. She battled too because of the trauma she went through! She never got help for it on any level. Now, she sits at home and won't even open her front door to anyone but family. My dad has to be there or myself anytime a person who is working on their home comes. She's afraid still to this day after almost 50 years.

I think her sister apologized to her and tried to make it right in whatever way she could (she was also being abused by my great Uncle Benny who was a Priest). It all rolls down hill, so you have to cut it off at the source, whatever that may be at the moment and bring awareness to the family and to anyone else that will help. I still weep for my mother to this day, just like I do for my sisters, my ex girlfriend, her sister and many, many, many others.

This thread, much like any thread in the past of it's nature, brings out the worst in people. Why? I don't know. Human condition is all I can honestly say that makes any sense to me.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby Jwar » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:28 am

goroth wrote:
goroth wrote:
I said nothing about no evidence.
I am not insinuating that random dudes off the street should be jailed without a trial.


Matt, I agree with you and I know you on a different level (at least I believe I do). So, your intent is good of course. I know you're not advocating innocent people being put in jail.

This statement though is easy to misconstrue on the internet though. "If a few innocent men get caught up in the attempt to redress this". So, perhaps, that's what is being latched onto? I love you man and have zero ill will towards you, so know I'm speaking from my heart because that's what I do.




This is the crisis we face and this what we need to also fight. As men, we need to help protect our female population. It's not that we are stronger or better or anything like that, it's that we are biologically wired to protect. Some men don't have this, I'm not sure why, but they don't. I know I do, and I know others who have that fire in them to fight. It's not just picketing either.

To put it in perspective of what I mean on getting involved in the solutions. My father has a friend (who will remain nameless). He is in a group that he created for the sole purpose of stopping child sex trafficking, which is a crisis going on in the United States. It really is and a lot of people are ignorant to it. His group has personally taken down thousands of these assholes and saved girls as young as months old. That's right just a few months old and have been raped repeatedly since they were born. These men go to jail, they deserve to rot forever in that cell. Death is too good for them, it's an easy exit. They need to suffer.

There are other groups like this out there, you have to search and get involved. We have to be the change we preach. I'm getting involved on a level I may share later down the line, but I think I can also help a lot of people.

Reach out to your local community, police, court houses...etc. Ask them "how can I help"? Find a Facebook group who is actually active (social media can do good sometimes). Advocate for equal rights of all human beings and equal justice for women especially. They need our help. They really do. We are all in this mess of existence together, so let's work together and stamp out these scum bags as much as humanly possible.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby Achtane » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:07 am

Perhaps this all could have been avoided had the band members' parents not named their children after cut Sesame Street characters.
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby dubkitty » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:27 am

yeah, everything would be fine if Icelanders called their kids "Brett" and "Chad."
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Re: Orri leaves Sigur Ros over sexual misconduct allegation

Postby PuddysJacket » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:40 am

Achtane wrote:Perhaps this all could have been avoided had the band members' parents not named their children after cut Sesame Street characters.



What could have been avoided? Nobody's been convicted of anything.

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