UglyCasanova wrote:Jwar wrote:goroth wrote:UglyCasanova wrote:Benn Roe wrote:unfortunately a few men ending up falsely accused is the price we have to pay to make sure more men who are rapists end up facing justice.
That is morally abhorrent.
Why is it abhorrent?
Dudes have been largely getting away with all sorts of violence towards women since time began.
That is abhorrent.
Current statistics about sexual violence, and eventual legal consequences for perpetrators of sexual violence, show that we as a society have a view about sexual violence that is abhorrent.
If a few innocent men get caught up in the attempt to redress this, in what way is that abhorrent?
Justice is an imperfect instrument.
We as a society try and improve this, so that innocent people stay out of jail, and that folks who get up to no good go to jail. Some of the laws are relatively good at this, and some aren't.
In the case of sexual violence are laws are so abysmally bad at prosecuting criminals almost anything we can do to right that is going, on the whole, to be a good thing.
Pretty sure believing women/the victim of sexual violence, is a fairly painless place to start.
Ehh. It is morally wrong to send a man to jail if he’s innocent. I think that’s what he was talking about.
Yes. There's a big, big difference between not being convicted due to lack of evidence VS being wrongfully convicted without any evidence, even though I agree with you that rape is a big, big problem because evidence is not necessarily always easy to come by in such a crime. I just don't think this is the sort of problem where you can morally justify breaking a few eggs to make an omelet. At least I don't want to live under a state that justifies imprisonment in that manner.
I said nothing about no evidence.
I am not insinuating that random dudes off the street should be jailed without a trial.
What I am saying is as follows:
1) This is a serious crime where the vast majority perpetrators get away scot-free.
2) This is one of the only crimes I can think of off the top of my head where the victim is, by definition of her gender, our stupid fucking hangups about sexuality, and the stupid law, from the beginning not believed nor taken seriously.
3) We cannot redress the first problem without coming to terms with the second.
4) Our justice system is imperfect. This is a given in all justice systems. Innocent people go to jail every day, in Norway, in Sweden, in the States, you name it. This should not be a reason to sit on our asses and do nothing about points one, two and three. If we start to prosecute even a fraction of those fuckups then the law of averages says that more innocent individuals will be punished. At this point I don't care.
Here is at least part of my argument in the form of a handy dandy youtube video.
Every last one of you posting in this thread knows someone who has experienced sexual violence. Unless you live in a doom cave with only your Sunn amps for company this is an unavoidable truth. If you don't think you fit into that category then maybe you should try talking to some of your friends and loved ones. How many of them have seen the perpetrator convicted in a court of law?